NORRA Mexican 1000 - 2013 Rules / Updates

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Anders Green, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    so Please Answer my Question:deal
    as Rule 9.7 states Racer must be lined up 60 min prior to the starter calls their start. so as per Rule 10.1 that that is 20 min Penatly if they are not?
    PLUS if they are still late the next PENATLY for NOT starting on your START time Each Day?
    Rule # 10.4.1.4 states it is a 10 Min added .

    Is this how it will work?

    I just need to know how much more time I have the Eat breakfast and drink my coffee.
    so then I know how much time I need try to make up
  2. Anders Green

    Anders Green NASA Rally Sport

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    1) Maybe. Maybe more, or a lot more, or maybe nothing. 10.1 doesn't guarantee penalties.

    2) Yes, although the phrasing of the question masks the subtly that the verbiage of the rule also handles general delays of the entire field, which would then lead to the possibility that one could start at a time which was NOT their officially published time but receive no penalties in that scenario.

    3) Cannot be answered conclusively, as both the questions and the answers have multiple conditional statements in them. Clear as mud? :rofl

    The good news is we'll have a "timing class" on the schedule, on Friday I think. We can all sit around the pool (or somewhere) and talk about it. :)

    Actually, I'm going to revise 2, because it's incomplete, so not "yes", but "no". You get 10 for out of sequence, and then you get the minutes you're late by. (10.4.1.2 AND 10.4.1.4)
    Anders
  3. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    [ The good news is we'll have a "timing class" on the schedule, on Friday I think. We can all sit around the pool (or somewhere) and talk about it. :)
    :freaky:freaky:freaky:freaky:freaky:freaky
    Thanks!!
  4. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

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    As a casual of observer I have no freaking clue what that means :rofl

    You folks must be much smarter than me :1drink
  5. Anders Green

    Anders Green NASA Rally Sport

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    Ha!

    Well, once you've been in rally for a decade, you'll pick up on these things.:wink:

    Example: You're slated to start second on the road, at 9:01am. The first guy is going off the line at 9:00. For whatever reason, there's a delay... let's say, oh, the umbrella girls were late. :evil

    So instead, the first guy starts at 9:10, and you start at 9:11. But that's not your published start time!!! OMG !!! :rofl But you still started in the correct sequence.

    Since it was some scoring guy's fault the umbrella girls were late, you and the other racers don't get a penalty. See?:D

    So the thing about the rules is they have to be carefully written to handle many strange scenarios that most racers might only see once in their whole racing career, while at the same time be understandable at least to a workable degree by new guys.

    Because we all know there's no stopping "strange scenarios" once you get into the desert! :ricky :freaky

    Anders
  6. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    sanity?
    Let me clarify.

    blah blah blah umbrella girls

    [​IMG]
  7. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

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    :thumb
  8. johnson357

    johnson357 Bad Monkey Racing

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    Already spent $90 for the numbers I guess sharpie it is :huh
  9. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    I will make up small stickers with the class letters for all the Bikes listed below and bring them to Baja.

    #6-MAR
    #357-MRR
    #30-MRR
    #61-MRR
    #25-MMO
    #727-MMO
    #47-MMO
    #15-MMO
    #811-MMO
    #721-MMO
    #312-MML
    #208.................What class you are not listed onthe NORRA web site
    #87...................What class you are not listed onthe NORRA web site
    #151-M50+0
    #333-M50+
    #815-M50+0
    #154-M50+0
    #101-M50+0
  10. Stagehand

    Stagehand Imperfectionist

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    I'm gona be a little late. Penalites be damned :D


    Ra ra suzuki
  11. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    This years support crew!!

    [​IMG]
  12. BAZZER450

    BAZZER450 Been here awhile

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    Ok how the hell are you supposed to be on time with them as your support team :huh:wink:
  13. Anders Green

    Anders Green NASA Rally Sport

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    When there's a decent internet connection (which might be any, all, or none of the days, depending on the luck of the desert) I'm going to attempt to stream some video out. Some of this will be live shots of each day's finish area since that's obviously where I am and where the internet connection is.

    However, I would also like to collect some helmet cam footage or in-car footage from each day and mix that in. I want to do a little testing of video formats before I get down there, just to be sure. So, if you have something that's not a gopro, could you take a 10 second sample video and email to anders8 //at// gmail.com? Don't take a video that you have and edit it down, because then I'm only really checking what your editor spits out. Just send me 10 seconds of your bird feeder or something. :lol3

    Thanks!
  14. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    Anders, I’d like to start off by saying you are doing an amazing job. I would also like to ask how you seem to manage to be getting younger and better looking with age?
    (never piss off the timing and scoring guys)

    That said and with all due respect, your explanations are not always as clear to people with less than 10 years rally experience as you think. The rules are written for a 202 class, the racers who have never done a rally event need it written for a 101 class.

    I asked you a direct question with an example and you gave two answers in the same sentence. After being clueless in 2011 after your long explanation on how timing worked at the drivers meeting. As I recall Mark McMillin stood up and tried to re-explain the basics. In 2012 I managed to get it figured out and not get any penalties because of my ignorance, but one for a late car repair.

    You refer to a “card”, but unless something has changed, there is no card. The “card’ is the timing sticker on the hood in my case. Do bikes have actual cards? In a car, you can’t see the timing sticker on the hood, so I use a stopwatch. Can I get a card and have the control workers write my times on it? Getting in and out of a car is obviously more difficult then getting off of a bike.

    Also staging for your start time seems to be a little confusing because when you show up in a car it’s a bit of a C-F with no one really checking you in. As long as you’re visible when you are pointed in line, you seem to be fine. Is that different this year? Your explanation of this to Baja Dad is not real clear. “Maybe. Maybe more, or a lot more, or maybe nothing. 10.1 doesn't guarantee penalties.”


    As far as start order, it seems a little ambiguous. I’ll assume there is a change because 9.5 is in red. So if I get a flat tire that adds 10 minutes to my time I can do some paperwork that will move me up in the start order? I can show up with my race resume and it may move me ahead in the start order(or back!)? Where do I get the paperwork to fill out to protest my start position and will it be reviewed within the 3 hours of published starts? If I dumb this down for the lazy car racers, is it the fastest time starts first unless there’s someone that says they are faster or they got stuck? Why not go off of the OA race position so you know where you stand in the race?

    Last year if you recall the car that was being scored about an hour behind me until day 4 started in front of me on Loreto. Should that have been a clue that there was a timing problem with that car? Should a car/bike that is shown on the posted time sheets that is an hour behind ever start in front of you? This leads me to believe that you are looking at a different time sheet than posted?

    10.4.1.4. Starting out of sequence at a stage with a published start order: 10 minutes

    Doesn’t a NORRA official line you up? If so, how is it possible to start out of sequence?

    I’m not a rally guy and I’m a bit of a left brainer, but I’ve managed to get through life be reading directions and listening. I’m going to tell you again, “with all due respect” , that your explanations are not real clear to non-rally folk. If everything you are trying to explain is SOP in other rallies, you should remember that the car guys are not going to automatically understand it.

    I’m not a whiner or a complainer, as you should know by what happened at the end of the race last year that affected the outcome based on timing mistakes. I don’t really like all of the extra rules to have to worry about, but I can play the game if I understand the rules. My concern s that new racers/ralliers are going to get scared off before they ever get a chance to experience NORRA.
  15. Baja Dad

    Baja Dad Long timer

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    Yes the Bikes have both a Sticker on the bike and a Card


    Last year at the Morning ( first start of the Day ) stage.
    Some Riders would just show up when they wanted to.
    NOT at THERE POSTED START time ( No Penalty was given????)
    IMO :
    The racers should pick a starting number out of a hat at sign ups for the First day.
    Then the next three days should all be done off the Time sheet.

    off for a ride !!!! see ya later.
  16. Anders Green

    Anders Green NASA Rally Sport

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    It's impressive, right? I use this cream from China!

    Unfortunately, the rules can't be written for a 101 class. That would be like trying to craft laws, or write an engineering manual, using only words with five or fewer letters. And actually, the 101 class wouldn't cover timing, because one can't understand the timing without knowing other fundamentals of the sport. Actually, for the other rally group I work with, I wrote a whole series of "courses", and timing doesn't show up till the 300 level.

    http://www.nasarallysport.com/main/Rally-University

    Double your money's worth! :lol3

    I wasn't there in 2011, and I've never even been on stage at the driver's meeting, so I think you might have me confused with someone else.

    Nothing has changed. There absolutely is a card. :deal The card is in your road book.

    No, the card is a card in your case. :lol3 The first backup is the sticker on the hood. The second backup is the digital picture of the sticker. The third backup is the paper log kept by the volunteers.

    Yes.

    I'd recommend using a watch instead of a stopwatch, and referencing the card.

    You can't NOT get a card. :evil

    Yes, they'll write on it.

    One shouldn't expect to be (and see, here's where the particular terminology used for this rally, and the alternate meaning it has here in this conversation, become a problem.) "checked in" (and in this sense I'm using the phrase as you intended it in your paragraph but NOT in the sense of the rules). There is no "check in" time control, so there is no "checking in". Most other rallies have an additional time control that tracks only arrival (so now I'm talking about two timing controls for the start, instead of one like NORRA is using) and at those rallies this serves as both the "check in" and the check in. (One in the rules sense and one in the sense that you mean.)

    I expect the operation of the start controls to be very similar to what they were before.

    The question posed by Baja Dada was taking one particular situation and then asking if the most generalized penalty rule in the book, the singe rule whose entire design is to allow the organization to handle unforeseen surprise circumstances, the rule that exists as a safety valve and fall back, and asking if that rule applied to the core of the timing penalties, an area where I have never seen this penalty applied. That does not mean that it couldn't be applied there. So the correct answer to the question, as you saw, is exactly that, unclear. Everything would depend on the situation. It's like asking "Can you get the death penalty for 1 MPH over the speed limit?"

    What's the 'it' in this case? There are two start order methods discussed in the rules, one for the start of the rally, one for all the days following that.

    You can always submit an inquiry and request a move. It may or may not be granted by the Race Director (which isn't me). For this particular example, I would expect that it would not.

    No, your race resume is not considered for the start of the rally (which is the only place it would make sense) it's strictly by class, then by the time you signed up.

    I usually have some inquiry forms with me.

    You mean if there is a start at 9am and you submit something between 6am and 8:59am? There would not be time to do that. Like, literally, the computers and printers could already be flying off to the next city.

    The short, but unhelpful, but still correct, answer to this question is no. This particular question cannot be answered in a dumbed down way as it involves statistics and math.

    Because the goal of the start order, in general is to make for the safest and best racing conditions for each racer, not to provide a scoreboard.

    You know where you stand by reviewing the results that are printed out.

    Yes.

    See 9.5. It's the speeds, not the times, that are used.

    Generally, yes.

    If you sleep in, and were supposed to start 10th on the road, and get there when everybody except the last car is gone... yes, you will be waved up to the start by an official, but you are completely out of sequence. You'd be 120th when you were supposed to be 10th.

    Is this like the part that's in the Geneva Convention? *grin*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-Id_fuXFA

    The difficult part is, and this is really the bottom line, is that rally is complicated. The whole structure of the event has complexities that are inherent to the nature of this type of racing and the political, legal, and racing realities that we operate in. There's no way to take that out. Ok, well, you can take all the complexities out... but you end up with this:

    [​IMG]

    Actually, in my usual world, it's the car guys who know everything about rally and the bike guys who are the newbs. I usually teach a class on these topics that takes about 2.5 hours, and we have those guys take that class three times.

    Holy crap that's a long post! :lol3

    Anyway, after all that typing, you owe me a beer. Come over to the Rally Clinic on Saturday before the driver's meeting to deliver, and we'll talk about all this stuff some more. :freaky

    Anders
  17. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    I may buy you a beer, but I'm not qualified to talk rally with you impaired!

    It may take awhile to make me a believer in this format, but I'm hoping you can do it. Until then, you may have to have to put up with my remedial questions.
  18. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    Damn, I'm glad I never post anything controversial. And if I do, the solution is always Duct Tape!
  19. az45

    az45 Adventurer

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    So the "card" is loose in the road book? At the end of each stage, they ask for the road book, pull the card and write a time on it that corresponds with the sticker? On the last stage of the rally, they pull the time card and keep it?

    I've never seen the card or noticed it being pulled and written on in 2000 NORRA miles. If that's the case, I guess the fact that I don't pay attention is getting fairly obvious.
  20. Anders Green

    Anders Green NASA Rally Sport

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    Bound in. Here's a pic from last years book. You're supposed to tear it out each morning and then keep it with you to present to the timers, then hand it in at the end of the day.

    This year there is a new penalty (10.4.1.3) for showing up at the end of the day without this piece of paper : minimum 60 minute penalty.

    [​IMG]


    Anders