On road, engine loses power and dies repeatedly

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by jlpp, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    In rural Kyrgyzstan riding US 2009 F800GS with problem as outlined below. Please excuse brevity (typing on phone) and mechanical novice. Requesting any thoughts on troubleshooting or fixing this problem. Bishkek is 350 kms away and hoping to get bike there tomorrow.

    Problem:
    Two days in row, at end of day and after 300+ kms per day, engine loses power and stops running, much like being out of fuel. Able to start by start button or bump start but only after engine turns over many times more than usual. Engine stops again after several minutes. Repeat this until arrive at destination for evening. After first occurrence, the following morning and most of day no issues, until recurred at end of second day. Thought I had run out of gas about 2/3rds through second day ride as fuel gauge dropped to zero quickly and engine died while gas gauge read empty for 10+ kms. Used two liters emergency supply and got to station. When filling it only took 11 liters so 16 liter tank should have had 3 or more liters when I thought it was empty and engine died. After filling at station ran 100+ kms before engine stopped for second time that day.

    Conditions:
    • Occurred first day at 3,200 meters, second day at 2,000 meters.
    • Both series of engine stoppages were near end of day after 200+ kms.
    • Outside temps both days at about 70 degrees F. Engine temps normal. Four out of eight bars. Fan running fine.
    • Both days have been dusty with a lot of bumpy off road.
    • Opening gas cap near end of day to fill tank there is a strong rush of air but not sure if tank has vacuum or is under pressure.
    • In Central Asia for the past two weeks. Lowest advertised gas: no more than 5 liters of 80 mixed with 92 already in tank, more than week ago. All other gas: 91+. Last two days only used 93 or 95.
    • Air filter is not new or clean but doesn't drop much dust when blowing on it or hitting it against something hard. Does not appear clogged but does have a lot of kms on it.
    • All reservoirs, hoses, cables, fasteners, clamps, etc appear ok except one hose that runs from right side of bike under seat then snakes down to hang just below bottom of bike. This hose is not connected to anything on either end. This hose doesn't exist on friend's German 2009 800GS. What's it for?
    • No rain but a few splashes from riding through small streams. No standing water in air box.

    Tests (while stopped on center stand at destination at end of second day, a few minutes after series of engine stops while riding):
    1. Run engine - engine loses power (struggles) and stops within five minutes
    2. Start with button - engine loses power and stops within one minute
    3. Start with button again - engine loses power and stops within one minute
    4. Open gas cap and start with button again - engine runs without issue for more than ten minutes
    5. Close gas cap without stopping engine - engine continues to run without issue for five minutes until turned off normally with switch
    6. Wait 15 minutes
    7. Start engine with button again - engine loses power and stops within ten minutes
    8. Open gas cap and start with button again - engine runs fine for about 15 minutes BUT THEN loses power and stops even with gas cap open

    Thoughts:
    Seems very much like fueling issue. Suspect vacuum in fuel supply preventing sufficient amount of gas from getting to engine. Maybe vacuum between canister and engine. Maybe fuel pump issue.

    Next idea:
    Check the fuel line vent to the very right and rear of bike, under seat. No issue on first look. Will remove from bike to have closer look and see if clogged.

    Please let me know if you have other ideas. Maybe how to check fuel pump to see if it's working properly. Or how to get a fuel pump to Kyrgyzstan and get it installed in the next 4 days. Trying to meet visa and medical schedules and deal with bike issues.

    Thank you,
    Jeff
    #1
  2. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    On computer now but Internet is spotty here so research is very slow. Our problem looks the same or very similar to the problem in the first post from this thread:

    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420546

    Charlie's (chunter) problem was only fixed when the fuel pump was replaced. Assuming, for now, that we need to replace the fuel pump too. Assuming this, follow-up questions in case anyone has suggestions while we continue to research (slowly):

    1. Is it possible to test the fuel pump to confirm problem?
    2. Is there a way to repair the pump, or at least get it to function more consistently for some time?
    3. Are there non BMW fuel pumps that can be made to work with F800GS, ideally that we might find in/near Kyrgyzstan?
    4. On a Sunday, is it possible to find which BMW parts dealer closest to Bishkek have fuel pumps in stock? We might have to fly there to get the part and come back in order to meet our visa schedule...

    (An urgent) Thank you!

    Jeff and Si
    #2
  3. cathulu

    cathulu Been here awhile

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    Suggest you bypass the fuel pump controller, ie wire the fuel pump direct to the battery. There is a thread on it. It is perfectly safe to do so and may solve your problem.

    Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 2
    #3
  4. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Jeff:
    The other thread is a good one.
    I suggest you hold a strip of paper near the fuel tank cap when you open it next time and as the pressure/vacuum is released the paper will deflect in or out ..........

    If it is deflecting IN (vacuum) then it may be the case that the vacuum gets so high the fuel pump can not overcome it.
    This would likely be the result of a clogged charcoal canister (assuming this is a USA built bike) or perhaps the check valve in the vent line from the tank.

    I carry an extra "straw" from a can of WD-40 in my tool kit so that I can close the gas tank lid on it if needed and hopefully maintain venting until I can fix the real problem (if it is a venting issue)

    What is the latest news?
    #4
  5. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    Thank you Cathulu. I'll look into bypassing the fuel pump controller now.

    This morning we bypassed the carbon canister and rode 300 kms to Bishkek. First 150 kms no problem at about 90 kmph. At about 150 kms I slowed for police, down into second gear and low RPM and engine stalled.

    Opened tank, which made no air pressure noises, filled tank to top with 95 gas and continued and engine stalled again about 20 kms later, in 3rd gear at about 3500 rpm, indicating that fuel level and tank pressure/vacuum is not significant to problem.

    At the end of the ride, in Bishkek, slowed to 1st/2nd/3rd gears through city traffic. RPMs ranged from 1k to 3k. Engine stalled about 10 times, every minute or two, before finding a place to stay for the night.

    Things we've confirmed or learned from today's canister bypass and ride:

    1. Stalling has not yet happened above 4k RPM nor above 50 kmph while in gear
    2. Stalling has not happened before 100 kms or first 1 hour of ride after night of no riding (something overheating?)
    3. Carbon canister is now out of the picture
    4. Tank pressure/vacuum no longer a factor now that tank vents directly to atmosphere instead of canister
    5. After stalling, engine consistently restarts after turning ignition off, waiting a couple seconds, then back on and hitting start button

    I wonder if engine is cutting out above 4k RPM and 50 kmph but inertia is immediately bump starting the engine back up. I think I feel very faint hesitations while riding but nothing so significant as to make it obvious. Maybe just in my head.

    What does all this add up to? A sensor? ECU? Bum fuel pump? I'd be really grateful for any way to narrow in on the problem.
    #5
  6. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    Thanks for your help, JR. Just posted an update above. We bypassed the carbon canister and the problem no longer adds up to a tank vacuum issue. Seems to be tied to heat as problem only happens after some time riding. Is it possible for the fuel pump to overheat? But then why would it work again immediately by cycling the ignition? The behavior makes it seem like there is a sensor or breaker that flips when the pump reaches a certain temperature and turning the key off and on again resets that sensor or breaker until it overheats again a minute later.

    Please keep the ideas coming... We're heading for the Chinese border in a couple days and are hoping to have some fix or workaround until we reach India, where our visa schedule is more flexible for proper fixing.


    #6
  7. Cambi

    Cambi Adventurer

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    Have you tried an ECU hard reset?
    #7
  8. docsherlock

    docsherlock Been here awhile

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    Buggered fuel pump - overheats as fuel supply gets low.

    You need a GS911 to diagnose.
    #8
  9. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    We haven't hard reset the ECU, no. I'll look into this.

    We were with a friend yesterday morning who has a GS911. It found no faults. Our plan is to reconnect in a couple days before crossing to China. I'll take any suggestions on what else to do with the GS911 with me.

    If this is a failing fuel pump that's overheating on low fuel, what options do we have to limp along? Keep the fuel level high and cold. What else? Another traveller friend who's with us now in Bishkek has a spare fuel pump for a 1100GS. Could this be rigged to work for a few thousand kms?
    #9
  10. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    jlpp:

    Based on the latest info, yes I have to agree it does not seem the canister is the problem.

    Keeping the tank at least 1/2 full will help keep the fuel pump cool.

    Some folks have had some luck with removing the fuel pump and then running it backwards and forwards by changing the poliarity on the pump and running some light solvent/lubricant (like WD-40 or kerosene) through it ... I've not done it so I can't say with certainty...

    Not sure if you could use the 1100GS pump but ... Here's a picture of what I think is the pump:

    http://cnnc.en.alibaba.com/products...3_465_OPEL_815037_815039_9120218_9200109.html

    http://www.onlyfuelpumps.com/oem-replacement-fuel-pump-hfp-382.html

    sigh................ oh for the days of carburetors..............
    #10
  11. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    Thanks again. This thread had some really good info: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599568

    We're going to take the 1100GS part to a mechanic and try a few of the suggestions discussed above. Sounds like the original Bosch part is fairly generic and a suitable alternative may be found in Bishkek. Will find out soon!

    More to come...
    #11
  12. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

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    No fix yet. We'll go to an "auto bazaar" tomorrow and show around the old pump.

    We've read that pumps from Opels, Vectras and other cars may be the same as the Bosch pump. Has anyone seen a more specific list of parts and part numbers that are the same?
    #12
  13. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

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    The pump is 50psi and capable of 90 liters per minute. It has BMW style electrical connectors. If the 1100pump fits that stat it should work. I agree it sounds like a pump, but the sensor on the fuel rail tells the the controller how much pressure is needed, other wise it will pump at full pressure all the time. That I suspect is unique to the bike.

    The word is that can be found on a few small cars.
    #13
  14. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    I recall Joel saying that the fuel pressure sensor could be unplugged and the bike would still run ok ....
    for a diagnostic test.

    I've never seen a part number cross reference, but from somewhere heard that our pump was the same as:

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    #14
  15. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,353
    Location:
    Nor Ca.
    I recently saw that some one did that and it ran. Routing around the controller has the same effect. I always thought the timing of the injecters controlled fuel flow, but there must be some reason to control the pressure. If not, 2 less things to go wrong.

    I remember an Opel pump being a potential source. Never found out which one, nor bothered as Opel dealers are kind of scarce. Looking at pressure and volumne for your typical US car, it must be an itty bitti thing.:evil
    #15
  16. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,631
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    On the one page of troubleshooting notes I keep on my bike at all times I have it written (so it must be true) :lol3

    That "Joel said":
    There are only two sensors that were absolutely required for the bike to run (notice I didn't say "run well" I just said "run")
    They would be the TPS and the crankshaft position sensor. If the BMS-K gets an "open circuit" reading to any other sensor it goes into "limp home" mode and just does the best it can do without input from that sensor. Unfortunately sometimes the sensors fail in a "believable state" such that the BMS-K thinks that the signal is valid which causes confusion.

    I would "hot-wire" around the pump controller and unplug the pressure sensor
    (not both at the same time ... try one then the other then both ... see what changes)
    #16
  17. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Oddometer:
    61
    Location:
    DC
    Thanks all. More detail and info to come after installation but quickly..

    Today we managed to find and buy a new Bosch fuel pump in Bishkek that looks identical except for the part number. We have some concern about the fuel filter too though. We're wondering whether the filter might be choked on bad central asian fuel and whether this made the original pump struggle to the point of overheating. If the filter is bad then the new pump might fail quickly. So we bought a fairly generic fuel filter too. It may not fit in the OEM pump/filter/controller harness but if we have to punch a hole through the original filter material and add this new filter in-line outside the tank with some weird colostomy bag like hose hanging out until we can get to a BMW part then we might do this.
    #17
  18. jlpp

    jlpp Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Oddometer:
    61
    Location:
    DC
    Ok, new fuel pump is installed and bike runs and rides fine in the 3 kms we've ridden so far. Here's some info on the pump and Bishkek in case others are interested.

    Firstly, the original US 2009 F800GS fuel pump we pulled out is labeled:

    0 588 453 439
    Bosch
    12v 01027
    Made in Germany

    The replacement part that we found in Bishkek is labeled:

    0 580 453 453 (yes, same # twice)
    Bosch
    12v 10607
    Made in Germany

    We found the replacement part (and bought two) at a shop that has Bosch placards and flags all over the front. We also got some Motul injector cleaner there:

    EVI Autocenter
    42.865440,74.567480
    Corner of Lev Tolstoy St. and Asanaliev St.

    The new part is basically identical from the outside but I don't know the specs on pressure and liters per minute. But again, it's installed and working so far.

    Next we went to the only motorcycle shop we heard of in Bishkek to see what kind of other shit we could buy. It's run by a guy named Dima and his wife. They've got helmets, armor, filters and other parts:

    "Dima Biker"
    42.882055,74.5235277
    One container of many in the Kudaybergen Auto Bazaar (pronounced Kudaibergen Afto Bazaar)

    After using his mouth to blow air through the original fuel filter, he believed that Tajik and other central asian gas had clogged it up and that the replacement fuel pump would also die if I didn't also replace the filter. We looked around the bazaar and went back to EVI to see if we could find a replacement filter but didn't find one. Instead we picked up a couple other types of fuel filters and hose that we could jury rig if we have find the new pump is struggling. I didn't feel any difference in the amount of pressure needed to blow air through the original filter vs. the new one so we left the original in place for now.

    We did the job of replacing the pump (and also new tires we've been hauling since Turkey) at the home of a local biker, Alexi. Actually I don't think I met Alexi but I met a couple of his friends and his son. In particular, a fellow named Constantine helped us quite a bit. This place was recommended by a Japanese biker who's been on the mend in our guesthouse here in Bishkek after an accident a couple months ago. None of them speak english but no problem.

    "Alexi Biker" (and Constantine)
    42.881468,74.631522
    212 Saratovskaya St.

    Lastly, here's what I found when searching online for alternatives to the original pump. None of it has been confirmed by me so some of it may be speculative:

    "Opel Tigra Vectra B Zafira 99-05 FUEL PUMP OPEL 815037"

    Pump on Alibaba:
    Replacement for:
    BOSCH part #: 0 580 453 465
    OPEL part #: 815037 815039 9120218 9200109
    S.I.D.A.T. part #: 70027
    VDO part #: 983 784 024 (993? 784? 025? A?)
    Pressure: 3.8 BAR
    Volts: 12v
    Vehicle Manufacturers:
    Opel Astra G
    Opel Corsa B
    Opel Tigra B
    Opel Vectra B

    High Flow Performance (brand)
    Part #: HFP-382
    Overall Length (tip to tip): 4 1/2" (11.5cm)
    Length of Pump Body Metal Case: 2 5/8" (6.6cm)
    Pump Body Diameter: 1 1/2" (3.8cm)
    Inlet Diameter: 5/16" (0.8cm)
    Outlet Diameter: 5/16" (0.8cm)

    Bosch #s:
    0580453447
    0580453420
    0580453431
    0580453439

    China pumps - Krauf #s:
    770002w
    77093w
    770b037 ​

    EDIT (10/21/12):
    Found the following information on a few pages when searching for Bosch 0580453453. Some places no pump manufacturer is listed. On Amazon it says Power Pro:

    Item# NSFP-01
    Also
    Item# C314

    Product Description
    AC DELCO: EP389 EP391 DELPHI: FE0117 FE0118 BOSCH: 0580453453 0580453407 0580453449
    Brand New OEM Quality Fuel Pump , PRESSURE: 3BAR SHUTT-OFF PRESSURE: 6BAR WIDE OPEN FLOW: 150L/H VOLTAGE: 12V Will Fit List The Vehicles Below :

    1995-1998 Nissan 200SX
    1998-2001 Nissan Altima 2.4L
    1995-1999 Nissan Sentra
    1993-1996 Ford Crown Victoria 4.6L
    1995-1998 Ford Contour 2.5L
    1995-1998 Mercury Mystique 2.0L
    1993-1996 Ford Probe 2.0L
    1995-2000 Ford Explorer 4.0L
    1995-1998 Ford Contour 2.0L
    1993-1996 Lincoln Town Car 4.6L
    1998 Ford Ranger 2.5L
    1993-1996 Mercury Grand Marquis 4.6L
    1994-1995 Ford Crown Victoria 4.6L
    1993-1997 Ford Probe 2.5L
    1998 Mercury Villager 3.0L
    1998-2002 Mazda 626 2.0L
    1994 Ford Tempo 2.3L
    1994 Mercury Topaz 2.3L
    1996 Ford Explorer 5.0L
    1997-1998 Ford F150 4.2L
    1994 Mercury Topaz 3.0L
    1994-1997 Ford Mustang 3.8L
    1997-1998 Ford F250 4.6L
    1999-2002 Ford E150 4.6L
    1994 Ford Tempo 3.0L
    1997-1998 Ford F150 4.2L
    1998 Ford Ranger 3.0L

    BOSCH : 0580453408 0580 453 408 0580453427 0580 453 427
    Fiat : 60812839 6081 2839 , 7789626 778 9626 , 46480607 4648 0607 464806070 4648 06070 , 606519690 6065 19690
    Alfa Romeo: 46480607 4648 0607
    GMC : 93238459 9323 8459
    Reference Part Number : 0580453408 0580 453 408 0580453427 0580 453 427
    Brand New OEM Quality Fuel Pump Will Fit List The Vehicles Below :

    Make & Model Engine Code Year KW HP cc
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 1.6 16V T.S. AR 67601 05.96-10.97 88 120 1598
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 1.7 T.S. AR 67103 04.93-04.96 83 113 1748
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 1.7 T.S. (167.A4D, 167.A4H) AR 67105 04.93-04.96 85 115 1748
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 1.7 T.S. 16V AR 67106 05.96-10.97 103 140 1747
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 1.8 T.S. Sport (167.A4A, 167.A4C, 167.A4E) AR 67101 AR 67102 02.92-04.96 93 127 1773
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 1.8 T.S. AR 67101 02.92-06.93 95 129 1773
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 2.0 T.S. (167.A2A) AR 67202 04.93-02.95 104 141 1995
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 2.0 T.S. (167.A2) AR 67201 02.92-04.93 106 144 1995
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 2.0 T.S. 16V (167.A2G) AR 67204 03.95-10.97 110 150 1970
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 2.5 V6 (167.A1C, 167.A1E) AR 67302 AR 67303 05.96-10.97 120 163 2492
    ALFA Romeo 155 (167) - 2.5 V6 (167.A1) AR 67301 02.92-04.96 121 165 2492
    ALFA Romeo GTV (916C_) - 2.0 T.SPARK 16V (916.C2__, 916C2C00) AR 16201 AR 32310 06.95-09.00 110 150 1970
    FIAT COUPE (FA/175) - 1.8 16V 183 A1.000 03.96-09.96 96 131 1747
    FIAT COUPE (FA/175) - 2.0 16V 836 A3.000 04.94-08.96 102 139 1995
    FIAT COUPE (FA/175) - 2.0 16V Turbo 175 A1.000 04.94-08.96 140 190 1995
    FIAT COUPE (FA/175) - 2.0 20V Turbo 175 A3.000 10.96-09.00 162 220 1998


    Will report back on the new pump when I've ridden a few hundred kms.
    #18
  19. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,631
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    If the old saying: "When the plan fails, the adventure begins" is true ... your adventure is well under way! :D

    Thanks for very informative post, I hope your problems are resolved, keep us posted!

    Based on your issues and watching the "long way down" videos ... I'll likely pack one of these or something similar on my round-the-world tour ... (that I hope to take some years hence):

    http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Funnel-AF1CB-Fuel-Filter/dp/B000SOFLHK
    #19
  20. justinparke

    justinparke 2 Wheeler

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1
    Location:
    Better lost in a good place than found in a bad
    JLPP installed new fuel pump.

    Note: no additional diagnostic/status information after this due JLPP's lack of internet connectivity.
    JLPP riding through rural Kyrgyzstan trying to make it through Pakistan to India before visa runs out.

    Input courtesy of Bob's BMW tech (thank you guys!) based on ADVRider post above + latest status:

    Sure sounds like a fuel issue. Your email doesn’t state if the problem persists with the new pump, I hope it doesn’t. I have seen the pumps overheat after an extended ride. To properly diagnose it you are gonna need a multimeter. These bikes have a fuel pump controller that varies the voltage to the pump to provide the correct pressure. Under the seat on top of the pump assembly sits the controller. Under the controller are the 2 output wires to the pump. You need to take a voltage measurement at the output of the controller when the bike is not starting to see if voltage is dropping off or exists at all. While cranking you should see over 10v. there is a possibility that the controller is popping out or the pump. So hopefully you can eliminate one. You can also jump the pump w 12v with the controller disconnected to test the pump as well. Hope this helps.

    Awesome BMW motorcycle shop to help out in a pinch with limited information from the field (Bob's BMW)... really appreciate the help!
    #20