OSM Openstreetmap tagging ADV tracks.

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by Myway, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    In OSM Openstreetmap

    There two types of Adventure riders:
    a. The tarmac types, there are many GPS maps en routing programs.

    b. The unpaved types, from gravel to trails, depending on the characteristic off your bike.

    Let talk about the unpaved types.

    Why discuss it here and not in a OSM forum.
    There is not such a motorcycle unpaved based thread there.
    Here are the unpaved adventure bikers. So more can be reached.
    How they think about it.
    Later on maybe a OSM forum........................



    First, what name is appropriat to our kind off riding?

    What is suitable for all characteristic unpaved motorcycles

    I thought:


    Allroad = Allroad motorriding.


    Is this a name that can be used in the whole world? So that everyone understand in a blink, what it is.

    Allroad could be used also for cars. Less scale.


    There lost of names:
    Mountain motorbiking
    Off road
    Enduro
    Trail motorriding
    How do you call you type off riding?

    I see this as sub categories, and the scale: of classifying the level of difficulty of using a track, give what characteristic you can drive on it.

    How do we tag this in OSM?
    Which other tags do we give to the unpaved.
    example:
    highway=track
    highway=path

    There is a tag motorcycle=yes, but that is more based on a streetbike.
    How do we make that someone on a streetbike do not use a trail and you can route about it.

    The combinatie off tags and stylesheet in a routeprogram, gives you a the possiblility to make a track.
    Unfortunately there not any route programs for the unpaved types, yet.
    Could not find a osm based program.

    How to give status off adventure level to a trail.

    Mountainbike example:
    MTB has special map and tags, Openmtbmap ,
    MTB scale

    OSM has a open structure, anyone can make and change relations.
    When walkers tag, they tag mostly as a walker, by tagging we must tag so that the other walky tagger has no need to change the tag.
    Because it is also tagged right for them.

    Your turn.
    #1
  2. dvwalker

    dvwalker Working to ride

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Oddometer:
    824
    Location:
    Oregon
    across the pond here, I think of these reference points for go anywhere type tracks.

    dualsportBIG (aka GS style bikes >400lbs or 180kg)
    dualsportSMALL
    #2
  3. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    Nobody else has some thoughts?

    OSM doesn't live in ADV world?
    #3
  4. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    #4
  5. dvwalker

    dvwalker Working to ride

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Oddometer:
    824
    Location:
    Oregon
    so the author of that wiki uses three classifications using weight.

    lightweight DS
    middleweight DS
    heavyweight DS
    #5
  6. DRTBYK

    DRTBYK All Things GPS

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Oddometer:
    6,255
    Location:
    47°50′15.8″N, 119°56′21.9″W
    I think it would be better to have just two classifications of Dual Sport tracks. To many classifications for one type of activity and map makers may miss the point: Can a BIG DS bike travel on this road?

    Cheers,
    #6
  7. classyd

    classyd Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Oddometer:
    86
    Location:
    Dutchess County, NY
    I would be more than happy to participate in this effort, but so far I still have to find a painless way to keep my OSM maps up to date. Any suggestions?
    #7
  8. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    Up to date:

    What does that mean.

    1. All ways, up to date, unfortunatly, this is not so, most highway=track highway=path are missing, the OSM community, we all DS riders, have to do that ourself. We are using this roads mostly as a driver and have more need for a routing program ( have to be developed ) over these roads. In a program like JOSM we can import our .gpx file, then draw the line and give the tag. (Sign in, in OSM)

    2. The map with our latest date drawing. Either you can select a area, or a pre-choosed area. From the site. (On regular basis updated)


    Use firefox etc. http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php
    You get a mail when the map is standing by for download, this can be a few hour or several days.


    Raw data

    http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/
    Or
    http://downloads.cloudmade.com/

    But all mappers use stylesheets, so they choose what we can see on these maps.

    Compare with the http://www.openstreetmap.org/
    #8
  9. JoukeHofman

    JoukeHofman Hello

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    25
    Location:
    Cold wet lowlands of the netherlands
    Over the past few months I've been working on just this idea.

    I have created a map on wich all legal tracks and paths are highlighted.Since I live in the Netherlands, its focused on that area (Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourgh). I have also added a routing engine wich prefers dirtroads, so making a route is really easy. The route can be exported as a GPX file. Have a look on http://www.allroadmap.nl

    With this same idea I have created a garmin-map, wich installs directly in Mapsource (Belgium, The Netherlands and Luxembourgh only). You can have a look at: http://data.allroadmap.nl/8jul2011.exe


    It would be really easy to expand the site to include other area's of the world.
    #9
  10. [TASF]Overkill

    [TASF]Overkill VRSATL

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Oddometer:
    181
    Location:
    Lynchburg, VA
    I am converting my maps over to OSM.

    In the U.S., "dualsport" generally covers the on and offroad motorcycling world. But trails that aren't roads are simply offroad trails. I would suggest doing something similar to what the mountain bicycle riders do.

    dirtbike:scale=
    0-10

    Perhaps use this as a standard scale:
    http://dirtbiketrailsidaho.com/difficultystandard.aspx

    I ride a KLR 650. Based on that scale, I would probably not attempt anything beyond Level 7 or 8. I don't think the size of the bike changes the conditions of the trail. The size of the bike also has nothing to do with the rider. Make it not relative. Make it absolute. Describe the trail conditions, not the riders you expect to see on it.

    What say ye?
    #10
  11. classyd

    classyd Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Oddometer:
    86
    Location:
    Dutchess County, NY
    Makes sense to me...
    #11
  12. [TASF]Overkill

    [TASF]Overkill VRSATL

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Oddometer:
    181
    Location:
    Lynchburg, VA
    Ha, whoops. I changed scales in mid typing. On my KLR, I wouldn't ride anything beyond a level of 7 or 8.

    The hard part is the scale... Is there anything ADVers accept as a fairly universal standard? The one I linked makes too much reference to local trails as examples in lieu of explaining them.
    #12
  13. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    #13
  14. [TASF]Overkill

    [TASF]Overkill VRSATL

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Oddometer:
    181
    Location:
    Lynchburg, VA
    OSM focuses on storing the data. Some intrepid ADV programmer could come along and write the map viewer specifically for the off road trails, color coding them appropriatel based on skill level or whatever. That's a whole separate issue. We're talking about how to best record the data.

    The OSM map viewer isn't currently well-suited for the specific task of visualizing offroad trail data, even though the data is stored there:
    http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=38.10566&lon=-79.82896&zoom=16&layers=M

    Given that these two trails have the "dirtbike:scale=" tag, in the appropriate viewer they could be represented with colors or something: (Note that this link is my "old way" of doing things, which relied less on data describing the way, but just on formatting I manually applied)
    http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gma...&directions=off&findme=off&label=off&skin=off

    First, let's work on getting the data for our trails into the maps. I plan on making sure I include seasonal notations in the standard way as well. Once there is sufficient data there, someone may build a specific viewer (I am going to contact the owner of the DualSportMaps.com and see about getting him hooked into OSM) which will open up a GREAT way of viewing trails, and potentially more advanced routing for planning spontaneous trips.
    #14
  15. [TASF]Overkill

    [TASF]Overkill VRSATL

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Oddometer:
    181
    Location:
    Lynchburg, VA
    #15
  16. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dirtbike:scale

    All, give comment on this !!!

    "[TASF]Overkill" used dirtbike:scale

    Think others (no motorcyclist) must understand what it means too.
    So it is dirtbike:scale or is it: DS:scale or ADV:scale or Dualsport:scale or Allroad:scale?

    Dirtbike:scale
    But do you think this suits all adventure bikes too? Like GS,Vstrom categorie and KLR DR XT categorie.
    Or is dirtbike not the proper name for the total group?

    Also give your comment on the scale [TASF]overkill proposed.

    ====================================================

    My cents.

    Conditons of trail depends a lot on the weather conditions and the season.
    Uphill and downhill are more effected by them.
    In this conditions dirtbike: scale=2 is for most adventureriders to heavy.
    Left over: scale 0 and 1.
    But how many riders are fitted in one this scales. And how many in 2-6
    Think, the most riders are scale 0 and 1 less in 2 till 6, so must 2 and 3 be degraded? To get more scales for a larger amount of people. Because dirtbike is also adventure riders.

    But there is also tracktype=grade (1-5)
    How to match that with dirtbike:scale?
    Seems that tracktype=grade5 only fits dirtbike:scale=0-1

    And there is surface and smoothness.

    In other countries a single trace is mostly tagged as a highway=path were motorcycles is allowed.
    So much hikers tag path although we can drive over it.
    In a lot of countries there must be a sign to forbid it otherwise you can drive over that.
    #16
  17. Myway

    Myway Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,267
    Location:
    Knobby country
    But first must it be a proposal dirtbike page in the osm wiki?
    #17
  18. wbbnm

    wbbnm Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,375
    Location:
    Abq NM
    Here is a web site that rates trails for jeeps.

    http://www.treknow.com/utah/backroads/central/central_utah.htm

    This is for just one area of Utah, but at the bottom you can see that they have specific measurables for the different ratings.

    BTW I saw this thread and decided to check out the OSM maps. I was disappointed to see that the maps were very inaccurate in places that I ride and know well in New Mexico. Don't know if this is pervasive.

    So I will be sticking with my Garmin Topo, City Navigator, and Google Earth trip planning methods.
    #18
  19. ebel

    ebel Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    55
    Location:
    Ireland, EU
    I'm a big OSM contibutor, and budding adventure biker, so I'm very happy to see more people add stuff. I'll try to answer what I can.


    Nope, you can just add & map & tag things. The wiki and "proposed features" is only to reach out to other mappers to agree on the best way to do things. We can have this discussion here.

    You can view GPX files in Potlatch, the web based editor (it's what you get when you click 'edit' on the webpage)

    One thing us advriders can do is add roads to OSM if they're not there. Today I added this road ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=167594336 ) that I went on while on a short ride. We can also add accomodation, petrol stations, hotels etc. This makes the map better for everyone.

    We can also details about roads/tracks, like "surface=fine_gravel" or "paved=yes". It's usually better to add objective, scientific details like "surface=gravel", or "width=1.2m" than subjective things like "surface=bad".

    "motorcycle=yes" or "motorcycle=no", is based on the law. Can you legally ride a bike on this road? (Sometimes a road might be open to bikes, buses and taxis, but not cars or horses).
    #19
  20. ebel

    ebel Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    55
    Location:
    Ireland, EU
    Depends. Most big professionally made maps (e.g. Google Maps) are pretty consistant across a country, whereas OSM can vary. One part of a country (or city) might be very well mapped, another part might not be. Sometimes OSM is waaay better than Google Maps (Have a look at Sarajevo OSM vs. Google Maps http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?mt0=mapnik&mt1=googlemap&lon=18.42118&lat=43.86&zoom=14 ).

    Remember you can add your town to the map!
    #20