Powerplus or Bust, Eh?

Discussion in 'Old's Cool' started by Twotaildog, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    Thanks anonny. Did you know that they used to assemble some of the Indian motocycles in Canada? Apparently they took parts that were made in Springfield, Mass, USA, and shipped them north of the border where they were assembled.




    I've been working on the wheels, I want to be able to roll it into my trailer and take it to the Davenport, IA meet. I'll post some pictures next week. Right now I'm off to Fargo to help my daughter move.


    Kevin

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    #21
  2. eldomike

    eldomike Who Cares

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    Reminds me of what they say about large boats...."Just a big hole in the water that you throw money into"
    :D

    Look forward to seeing it at Davenport!
    #22
  3. Gham

    Gham Long timer

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    This appears very ambitious.I'm not sure I could handle the learning curve here...best of luck and looking forward to more photo's of your progress.

    I admit I lack the talent to do justice to a project of this magnitude.
    #23
  4. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    Agreed; it's an aggressive schedule. Maybe the learning will help my mind from going feeble. :D

    Thanks - we can all use a little luck. I'll post some more pictures soon, I'm in an airport on my way home now.

    Kevin

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    #24
  5. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    I want to get two wheels put together so I can roll the bike into my trailer to take it to Davenport with me for Labor Day weekend. The first step is to get the old wheels off, take them apart, and see what parts I'm going to need. The tires were so fossilized that I couldn't even get the front wheel off because the tire wouldn't clear the forks. Out came the tin snips. It's funny, I felt a little sad and queasy taking the snips to those tires that are probably older than me (and I'm pretty old). It had to be done though.

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    The spokes on the front wheel are actually pretty good, other than some surface rust, and there's only one spoke missing:

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    The bearing cups in the hub have some pits. They would work for a while, but not from coast to coast:

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    The hollow axle is in good shape. It has caged bearings, which look to be in pretty good shape. One of the bearing cones is in really good shape, the other one has some pitting:

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    Here's the good cone after cleaning:

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    And here's the pitted one. It looks worse in the picture than in real life:

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    The center axle is fubar. Someone has re-tapped the threads, which I believe should be 3/8 - 24, with coarse threads:

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    The rim itself looks pretty rusty, but the wastage isn't that bad and I think it can be saved:

    [​IMG]




    So I've contacted a couple of vendors about front wheel hub bearing cups, bearing cones, and a center axle, and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I know that I can get new ball bearings. I've also ordered material to make a center axle if I need to.

    These are my thoughts on the original front wheel; If I can't get new cups and cones, I'll probably clean the old ones up, grease them up good, and assemble them. I'll de-rust the rim, replace the missing spoke, adjust the spokes, put a tire on it, and call it good. It will be the spare wheel for the Cannonball, and it will be my normal original wheel after the Cannonball. The thing is, the Cannonball goes through some high traffic areas, which is a condition that bikes were not designed for in 1916. So you need a wheel with front brake, and one can be installed without modifying the fork or the rest of the bike in any way. Here is a link: http://occhiolungo.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/how-to-front-brakes-for-an-early-bike/

    If anyone has any Indian front wheel cups or cones, I would be interested. I'm also looking for a drum brake wheel from a ~1970's dirt bike, with a 21 inch aluminum rim. It has to be less than 3 inches wide at the axle, anything narrower than that would work, I can make spacers. I also discovered that I don't have the rear engine mount plates, so if anyone has a line on a set of those, let me know. I don't know how I didn't notice that before.


    Kevin

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    #25
  6. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    Quick update on the front wheel - Walker Machine says they have the front wheel hub ball cups in stock, so I ordered a set. They said they can make me a set of cones too, but it will take a couple of months or so. So, when the new cups come in I'll put the front wheel together with them, new balls, and the old cones. I'll have to make a new center axle myself. It will be easy to change out the cones after the AMCA Davenport meet. Also, I was able to salvage two original Indian spokes from one of the rear wheels, and they are an identical match for the spokes on the front wheel, so I will be able to replace the missing spoke on my front wheel with one of them. When it's all done the front wheel will have new guts, but still be crusty on the outside. :wink:

    Kevin

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    #26
  7. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    I've learned that the wheels on these old motorcycles are built more like a modern bicycle wheel than like a modern motorcycle wheel. If you're not familiar with bicycle wheels, the names of the parts might seem strange. For example, the bearing races that are pressed into the hub are called cups:

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    And the other bearing races are called the cones, and they have a dust shield around them:

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    The wheels have two axles, a hollow axle and a center axle. This is the hollow axle:

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    The hollow axle is threaded on both ends. Note that the threads are shorter on one end than the other. The short threads are the stationary end, because the cone on that end threads tight against the shoulder. The long threads are the adjustable end, because the cone on that end is used to adjust the bearing clearances:

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    This is the center axle:

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    The balls can either be caged or loose. Here are some examples of both:

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    The hollow axle goes through the hub:

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    Then the balls go in:

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    Then the cones go on:

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    Then the center axle goes in, to hold the wheel to the forks:

    [​IMG]


    The front wheels don't have a bushing between the center axle and the hollow axle (none is listed in the parts list) so it appears that it's just the O.D. of the center axle that centers it in the I.D. of the hollow axle. On the rear wheel, which I will post shortly, there is a bushing to center the center axle in the hollow axle.



    Kevin

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    #27
  8. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    The rear wheel came off without cutting the tire - until after. It had an oversized inner tube folded up inside of it, visible before the tire was even removed from the rim:

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    Some of the lettering was still visible on the rear tire, it was a Goodyear, size 28 x 3:

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    In this next picture you can see the skip-tooth bicycle sprocket that someone had fitted to it. The little part with the red paint on it is the bushing I mentioned earlier, that centers the center axle in the hollow axle. It also acts as a spacer between the ends of the wheel assembly and the swingarm. The little fishtail piece is the axle adjuster, you can see the one original rear axle nut that I have, the 7/16" balls, and the end of the stationary cone:

    [​IMG]




    Next is a picture of the brake side (right hand side) of the wheel. You can see the adjusting cone. On the rear wheel the adjusting cone is different than the stationary cone, the adjusting cone has a hex on it and the stationary cone does not. After looking things over I think the wheel was assembled wrong. It looks to me like the stationary cone should be on the right side, shouldered against the brake hub, and the adjusting cone should be on the left side where it is accessible without removing the brake hub. If anyone knows, please comment. Here's the picture:

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    This is the reproduction brake hub that I got from Ziggy Kapuscinski:

    [​IMG]




    As you can see in this picture, the hollow axle was broken in two pieces:

    [​IMG]




    Probably because of the broken hollow axle, one of the bushings is severely worn where it inserts into the hollow axle:

    [​IMG]




    The bearing cups look a bit rough, but we'll see what they look like after I clean them up:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Stay tuned - more to come.

    Kevin

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    #28
  9. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    Once the rear wheel hub cups were cleaned up, you could see some pits, as I expected.

    [​IMG]

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    After I soaked it in Evaporust, and preserved it with Strongarm, the adjusting cone looked pretty good:

    [​IMG]




    The stationary cone was pitted, and it was frozen to the broken hollow axle:

    [​IMG]




    The bushings cleaned up pretty well in the Evaporust:

    [​IMG]




    I was able to get the sprocket nut off. It's a little beat up, but useable:

    [​IMG]




    Some of the spokes had been replaced with bailing wire secured with a little square of tin on the inside of the rim. Notice the fossilized bugs in the second picture. I wonder if they could extract some DNA and start a Jurassic Park:

    [​IMG]

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    And some of the spokes had been replaced with #9 wire twisted together:

    [​IMG]




    The rim itself looks like it can be saved:

    [​IMG]




    Next, I'll post some pictures of the spare wheel.

    Kevin

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    #29
  10. yokesman

    yokesman Been here awhile

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    I was at walmart n saw a 28inch tube(?), guess I either have been out of bicycles too long or motorcycle not long enough. their 26inch tube folded in my 26 inch tire also,guess they have decided it was just more economical to just restamp n package the 28's.
    #30
  11. Old Mule

    Old Mule Been here awhile

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    Chihuahuan Desert in Texas
    for taking the time and effort to share your re-incarnation of this fine machine!
    #31
  12. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    My pleasure.

    Kevin

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    #32
  13. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    As I mentioned earlier, I have a spare rear wheel. It was presumed to be the wheel to the sidecar, but it's actually a rear wheel. The good news is, it has a good hollow axle:

    [​IMG]




    The pits in the cones are pretty bad though:

    [​IMG]




    Somebody had bolted a solid piece of a tire to the rim, with no pneumatics:

    [​IMG]

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    I wonder how that worked out for them. Obviously, that had to come off:

    [​IMG]




    There was a rim strip on it, I'm not sure why. And there was a lot of rust. And what appeared to be a piece of an old belt. Who knows what they were thinking:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    Kevin

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    #33
  14. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    It had been fitted with a grease cup in the place of the normal grease fitting. And, similar to the front wheel, there was some fancy spoke work:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]




    The rim was rusted beyond repair. You could actually see light through it in some places:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]




    Since the rim was shot, I went ahead and de-spoked it. It took all afternoon, but I was able to remove 26 of the 36 spokes with out cutting or breaking them. The two spokes on the left match the spokes in the front wheel, and most of the spokes in the other rear wheel, so I think there is a good chance that they are original Indian spokes. I will use one of them to replace the one spoke missing from the front wheel:

    [​IMG]




    After soaking in the Evaporust for a bit, the hub looked really good. The threads are good on both ends. One of the bearing cups is cracked but replacements are available. After a little hand work to clean it up, I'll see about getting this one re-plated:

    [​IMG]

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    That's it for today. Next I need to take stock of what rear wheel parts I have that are good (between the two wheels), what parts I can buy, and formulate a plan to build a Cannonball worthy rear wheel.


    Kevin

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    #34
  15. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    I woke up this morning thinking about the history of thread standards. In High School, I used to hate history, now I find it fascinating. The early 1900's must have been an exciting time in industry. You had guys like Edison, Glenn Curtis, the Wrights, Hedstrom, Harley & Davidson, Henry Ford, and on and on, all working out the basic standards and techniques that we still use and refine today. They took design and manufacturing from not much more than 'arts and crafts,' all the way to mass production of complicated machines. If you think about it, before the late 1800's, we were still at the tail end of the iron age. People were still shoving hunks of iron into fires and beating on them with a big hammer, while some kid pumped on a bellows to keep the fire hot. A few years later, in the early 1900's, the civilized world was fully industrialized.

    What got me thinking about all this? The fact that I can't go down to the hardware store and buy a 1/4" - 24 TPI bolt to hold the fender on my Indian. 1/4 - 24 doesn't match any modern standard. On the Indian almost every fastener has 24 threads per inch. So far, I've seen 24 TPI on everything from 1/4 inch bolts to 7/8 inch hollow axles. Most of the people on this forum have spun a wrench at some time or another and know that, in the modern world, thread pitch usually changes with bolt size to some extent. Indian's engineers, for whatever reason, stuck with 24 TPI on everything. I wish I could talk to them about it, just to understand their thinking. As an Engineer myself, I envy their freedom to create their designs without having to mold their thoughts to fit preconceived standards.

    Looking at the history of the Society of Automotive Engineers on Wikipedia this morning, I know that they started in 1902. But it sounds like they didn't really get going until 1916 (same year my bike was built) when they joined forces with folks from the American Society of Aeronautical Engineers, the Society of Tractor Engineers, National Association of Engine and Boat Manufacturers, the National Gas Engine Association, the American Society of Agricultural Engineers, the National Gas Engine Association and the National Association of Engine and Boat Manufacturers. I suspect that the railroad guys had a hand in things too, but I didn't see anything about that. I'm pretty sure the gun industry had a lot to do with thread standardization as well. Having been an Engineer for the last 32 years, I know it makes sense to have standards. There's no reason to design every fastener, alloy, chain, key way, etc. from scratch. With standards, you can pick these things from a catalog and design your machine around them.

    I know from past reading that, prior to the early 1900's, most bolt threads were fairly coarse, because the metals weren't that good. As industry advanced, better alloys were developed that made finer threads possible. Early American (SAE) thread standards are now called UNC (Unified National Coarse). Early British thread standards were also coarse, and they're called Whitworth. UNC and Whitworth fasteners are both in inches, and if it wasn't for the fact that early Whitworth used 55 degree rounded threads, and SAE used 60 degree threads with a squared off tip, they otherwise match pretty close. If you use my example of a 1/4 inch bolt, Whitworth and UNC are both 20 TPI. 3/8 Whitworth and UNC are both 16 TPI. A 1/2 inch Whitworth, however, is 12 TPI while a 1/2 inch UNC is 13. Anyway, as better alloys were developed (being driven by world wide industrialization and world wide wars) they were able to cut finer threads so we Americans developed Unified National Fine (UNF) threads and the British developed CEI and BSC (Cycle Engineers Institute and British Standard Cycle) threads. The other big difference between British and American bolt standards the way the wrenches are labeled. The Brits decided that every 1/4 inch Whitworth bolt must have the same size head, and the wrench you use to turn it will be called a 1/4 Whitworth wrench. We Americans decided that a 1/4 inch bolt can have any size head you want, and you just use a wrench that fits the distance across the flats (AF) of the head to turn it. So a 1/4 inch UNC bolt might use a 3/8 inch wrench, or it might use a 7/16 inch wrench. Either way works, I guess we were still just a little more focused on freedom than the Brits at the time. :D

    If you read through the old Indian advertisements from the teens, they were very proud of their advanced metallurgy. The ads say that their motorcycles are made from vanadium steel. I'm not a metallurgist, but it must have been good stuff for the time. Henry Ford made also made his chassis' out of vanadium steel during that period. Anyway, it's safe to assume that the materials that Indian was using were capable of supporting fine threads because most of the threads on my motorcycle have held up for almost 100 years. Fine threads were pretty high tech at the time, I think.

    So, in the end, what will I do about my fender bolts? I'll go to a hardware store (which are getting harder to find) and buy a 1/4 - 28 bolt with a long shank, cut the threaded part off, and thread the shank with a 1/4 - 24 threading die. I'm not sure why they still sell 1/4 - 24 threading dies, but I'm thankful that they do.

    Enjoy your weekend.


    Kevin

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    #35
  16. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    Now that I've got both rear wheels apart I've taken a look to see what it's going to take to put together an original rear wheel. I'm not saying I'm going to ride the Cannonball on an original rear wheel, I may or may not, it may be my back-up.

    I've got two good hubs, each with one bad bearing cup. I've get one good adjusting cone, missing it's dust shield. I've got one good hollow axle. I've got one good rim, still attached to one of the hubs, but needing at least 5 new spokes. I've got one axle nut, rough but good enough to use or copy. I have one usable sprocket nut. I've got one chain adjuster plate and one chain adjuster screw. I have one good axle bushing. I have 26 spokes that I saved from the rear wheel, some of which may be useable. So, here's a list of what I need to make one wheel:

    (1) Brake Drum
    (1) Brake Drum Retaining Nut
    (5+) Spokes & Nipples
    (1) Chain Adjuster
    (1) Chain Adjuster Screw
    (1) Center Axle
    (1) Center Axle Nut
    (1) Rear Sprocket
    (1) Bearing Cup
    (22) 7/16" Ball Bearings
    (1) Stationary Cone w/ Dust Cap
    (1) Adjusting Cone Dust Cap
    (1) Axle Bushing


    Ziggy Kapuscinski in Canada has a repop brake drum, so I've ordered it and it's on the way.

    I've ordered the following rear wheel parts from Walker Machine:
    (2) Ball Bearing Cups (I might as well replace them both)
    (22) 7/16 inch Ball Bearings
    (1) Adjustable cone w/ Dust Cap (I'll use my old one for a spare)
    (1) Chain Adjuster Plate
    (2) Axle Bushings (I'll use my good one for a spare)
    (1) 36 tooth Rear Sprocket



    So, that leaves me short the following parts, which I have not found a source for:
    (1) Brake Drum Retaining Nut
    (1) Chain Adjuster Screw
    (1) Center Axle
    (1) Center Axle Nut
    (1) Stationary Cone w/ Dust Cap



    If anyone knows a source for these parts, please let me know. I heard there's another Indian parts guy somewhere in Oregon, but I haven't researched it yet. Any info would be helpful. The most critical item is the stationary cone. If I can buy the other stuff too, good. Otherwise, I think I know a local machinist that can make the drum retaining nut for me. The chain adjuster screw, center axle, and center axle nuts I'm pretty sure I can make myself.

    The overall plan will be to use the original hub and rim, which are still laced together, as the basis for the wheel. I'll de-rust the rim in place, adjust and replace spokes as needed, stuff the new parts into the hub, and mount it up.

    Parting comment - I've been thinking about Lewis's comments about goals (on the AMCA forum). My goal for the 2016 Cannonball is to ride all of the miles on my 100 year old motorcycle. That's what I'm working towards.


    Have a blessed Sunday.


    Kevin

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    #36
  17. Twotaildog

    Twotaildog Old Poop

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    Some good news on the front wheel. It turns out that Walker Machine has bearing cups in stock, so I ordered a set of those. I've already ordered the ball bearings from them. They say they can make the cones, but it will take a while. Once they shoot me a price I'll probably order a set of them. As for the front axle, I got a PM from inmate melville telling me that bicycle coaster brake hubs use 3/8 - 24 TPI axles, which is what I need for my front wheel. Sure enough, I got on ebay and found one that looks like it will work. Once all that stuff comes in, I will have what I need to fix my original front wheel.

    I talked earlier about possibly making a Cannonball front wheel with a brake. Once again, an Advrider inmate came through with a great idea. cyclefreak13 suggested using a modern bicycle dynamo front hub, with drum brake, from http://www.sturmey-archer.com/produc...48/tech/1.html . My Indian doesn't have an electrical system. I was planning on using a rechargeable battery pack to run the lights, if needed. I would recharge it every night. But with the Sturmey Archer dynamo hub, I could charge the battery going down the road. So I'm considering doing the Sturmey-Archer hub for the Cannonball wheel. the original wheel would be a back-up. Any input or discussion on this would be of interest.

    Kevin

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    #37
  18. LAkevin

    LAkevin Adventurer

    Joined:
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    Much of your enjoyable thread is a learning experience for me. I really appreciate your efforts in documentation.

    One minor idea I might add is that you can use that dynamo hub as a regenerative braking system. If you have a switch that you can turn off the circuit to that hub, you can use the drag induced by the system to help slow you down, ala regenerative braking. I don't know how much current you can drive through that hub, but many hybrid cars us this system to help slow down. Perhaps a DC pancake motor may be a better option if you can modify it.

    What the hell, just an idea.
    #38
  19. bk brkr baker

    bk brkr baker Long timer

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    The spokes ,the strip of tire bolted on , probably a lot more to come. Was this bike at one time owned by a farmer ?
    It the sort of thing we do when , parts aren't available, can't afford to throw good money at it so let's rig it for "One last time ".
    Love that you're documenting the struggle . Please continue.
    #39
  20. davevv

    davevv One more old rider

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    Thanks for taking us along in your endeavor. This project is well beyond my skill and patience levels, so I really enjoy seeing someone put these talents to work.
    #40