Project Full Circle:Ninja 650 gets a makeover

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by sailah, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. Quacamole

    Quacamole Adventurer

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    Next build - now that's my kind of guy, always with new ideas to make the perfect bike!
    JB weld I have not seen in action but Devcon makes pretty good metal sealing stuff, I have
    seen them using it on high pressure hydraulic pipes.

    You happen to have any photoshop sketch of the future bike?

    Keep it up!
    #41
  2. bk brkr baker

    bk brkr baker Long timer

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    I had to replace the motor in my '92 KLR after I tried to wean the origanal one of oil.
    i bought a 1000 mile motor on E-bay and the shipper put it in a wood crate. It didn't make it to me in a resonable length of time so I had to track it down in a hub in Tennessee. The label had come off the wood crate.
    Then Fed-X put it in a plactic tub with very little else around the motor. It finally got to me with oil an inch deep in the tub.
    I was too busy to get it in the bike right away and when I finally got it buttoned up and put the oil in, it ran out a crack I hadn't noticed, right on the seam between the cases. It had been too long to get any help from the seller or Fed-X.
    So I used a Dremal to rough up the case and contac cleaner , then layered on two part epoxie , that then weeped oil. Cleaned it up and relayered it.
    Now 6 years later, my bike marks it's spot. It doesn't leak enough to need oil between changes , but the drip is still with me. In the 27,000 miles since , I've come to accept it as character.
    #42
  3. Bambi

    Bambi Been here awhile

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    Hi all,
    Mr. Baker said 'I've come to accept it as character'. That's exactly what we old-brit-bike-lovers do, the real and original ole ones since the 60-ies, me since the 80-ies!
    Triumphant regards, Bambi
    #43
  4. 2fast4u

    2fast4u Been here awhile

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    I would have someone tig it. Take the motor out or turn whole thing upside down and weld it.
    #44
  5. mousitsas

    mousitsas Long timer

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    Sailah....you are going soft my friend! I predict that you will create another fine monster, only to realise it is kind of boring.
    What you want, what you really really want, is to convert a 1000cc SS machine. Think of FZ1 only 50lbs lighter :evil
    #45
  6. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Well this is just great, transmission won't go into 2-3-4-5-6 :bluduh Started pulling it apart at midnight too tired to get all the way in it.

    I think I'm going to start shopping for a new motor and use this for spares. Bastid
    #46
  7. jdrocks

    jdrocks Gravel Runner

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    the 6spd cartridge transmission in your motor has a "positive neutral" feature that doesn't allow an upshift from neutral into 2 through 6 unless moving. so unless you were spinning the countershaft while trying to shift, it won't go into 2nd gear, or any higher gears either.

    problems with that trans are rare, i don't recall any mention of outright failure. it's about as bulletproof as they get.
    #47
  8. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Hmmm I was spinning the countershaft. It seemed weird that there would be a transmission issue since the thing that took it off the road was a front end hit with no other damage.

    I think I'm still going to try and find a spare motor for this bike. But none of that is important right now as I need to get to fabricating.

    Got the ktm swingarm. The kawasaki pivot bolt is 20mm the ktm needs 17 mm. going to be lots of lathe work which is good because I need the practice
    #48
  9. PhiSig1071

    PhiSig1071 What's ******width?

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    Man, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I followed the FZ1 and CBR builds closely.
    #49
  10. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Yeah I'm pretty excited about this one. I think I have finally landed on a motor and frame combination that is ideal for a great ADV bike. The FZ1 was too heavy and powerful. It was my first build and I made a lot of mistakes. Plus it was very expensive component wise. The CBR was a play toy. Still working through some issues but it is very fun. It ROCKETS off the line, very fun, but no one would want it because of the comfort issues and lack of fuel range.

    I decided to go in a much different direction on this bike from my original intent which was another radical departure. I'm going to largely leave the subframe alone other than a couple tubes which will need to get moved to clear the new KTM shock. That way the original plastic inserts, battery box, ECU location as well as the body work are going to be stock. I plan on bending up two aluminum hoops for Wolfman luggage saddlebags. Exhaust is on the right and on the left I plan to mount a Rotopax 1.75g fuel cell to bring total fuel to 6 gals which is plenty for a bike that gets this range.

    The ninja has so much going for it as JD, Sanjoh, Tony Morr, Dentvet and others have shown. Plus with the buy in for a wrecked Ninja so cheap I thik it has the possibility to really create a bunch of new builders. In that regard I plan to document the build much more thoroughly and create detailed dimensioned CAD drawings so that someone could duplicate my build with some work. Everything from the custom stem to mount KTM triples to the bushings and new swingarm pivot bolt will all be spec'd for a machinist to churn out the fundamental parts to convert one over. Some of the things I plan like a rally fairing are obviously not easy to duplicate but the front end is easy enough to come up with e decent windscreen and lighting solution.

    Anyways, I had a long ponder session last night with the swingarm. The stock Kawasaki pivot bolt is 20mm solid rod. The KTM swingarm has a 17mm through hole. I'm going to sit down at the lathe with some calipers and see if I can turn up some bushings to insert into the Ninja frame which will be welded. That will locate the swingarm in the frame and then I just need to make an aluminum filler piece for between the ears of the arm. The stock pivot bolt will get turned down to 17mm and rethreaded for a M16 nut.

    The stem I had a long think about. The CBR I made bearing cups that I welded to the CBR steering tube. I did not want to do that again so I sat down with both the KTM and Kawasaki triples and stems and did some figgering. Basically the Ninja stem is much larger in diameter so conversion bearings aren't going to happen. I decided to machine a new stem that will utilize the stock Ninja bearings (although I bought new tapered roller bearings because I hate those ball bearing jobbies). It will then neck down to press into the lower KTM triple. The nice thing about KTM stems is that they are pretty simple. The only thing slightly difficult for a rookie machinist like myself is the M20 1.5 thread on the inside for the top nut. I bought a M20 1.5 tap for $25 that will make that a non issue. Bought a 1' aluminum 6061 rod from Mcmaster Carr for $10.

    [​IMG]

    I need to take the front end off the CBR and bring it to a buddy's who has a hydraulic press so I can swap stems and use the Emig setup on the new bike. Once the front end is on I can check clearnaces with the front wheel, radiator and headers to make sure there is no issue. Then I can start measuring for rake and think about where the rear upper shock mount will land to give me the geometry I want.

    I think this build is going to be fun to do. I'm not rushed like my last couple builds, I want to do things right and not cut corners. There's a bunch of talented CNC fabricators in the garage thread who I plan to use for some of the bling CNC parts that are out of my abilities with the tools I have so that should be fun to get others involved.
    #50
  11. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    Just catching up on the build. That crack is a massive bummer.

    Personally, I'd go for the new cases. Although, a decent TIG welder could fix it. The amount of work is about the same -- you'll have to gut the motor in both cases.

    If you're worried about the SN matching, take the old cases with the SN, and the new cases with a bill of sale to the State Police or DMV, and have them update the records. There should be some kind of procedure in place for that -- it's not uncommon.
    #51
  12. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Regarding the cases I have spoken with our resident Loctite rep, Dirty_Sanchez, and he gave me some good advice that was a lot less painful than splitting cases. I'll report back on the results but I think at this point I'm good with the repair. I have also heard from others now that the neutral to 2nd shifting I am trying to attempt is impossible just sitting there. Well, I was spinning the CS sprocket while I was trying to shift and it wasn't working? Maybe I just need to ride it. I guess no 2nd gear clutch dump drag races are happening...

    Got to work on some machining. The plan for attaching the KTM swingarm is as follows. Machine down the rear axle from 20mm to 17mm, and rethread for an M16 1.5 nut. Did most of that last night. Wow, that axle was harder n'a woodpeckers tooth. Finally got it down and it looks good. The stock swingarm bolt was chromed and the last time I tried to turn a chrome shaft I ruin a lot of lathe bits :bluduh Plus the axle was just a little longer so more to grab on the lathe.

    [​IMG]

    You can see in the pic that the swingarm doesn't go all the way to the frame on both sides. the plan is to make some standoffs that are ~25mm OD, 17mm ID (for the axle) and necked down on the frame sides to 20mm so that they can passthrough the frame and locate the axle concentrically. I will press and weld these in place once I get dimensions finalized. I used spacers on the FZ1 and CBR builds but both those builds had the same diameter swingarm pivot so it was much easier. I also will machine up a aluminum tube to go in the middle of the swingarm so that the bearings don't walk out.

    Got started on the custom stem. Bought a 1' chuck of 1.5" 6061 aluminum from mcmaster. It JUST fit in the headstock of my lathe:wink:

    [​IMG]

    The idea is to keep the Ninja bearings stock. I bought new tapered roller bearings which have not yet come in. I machined the stem to accept the 35mm ID bearings, it necks to 30mm to press into the lower KTM (or Emig) triple. The top section I haven't finished on the lathe because I want the bearings in hand before I finalize things. Too much potential to cut it short. It's really beefy. the stock KTM stem is hollow with a 13mm bore or about 1/2" I thought about boring it out which would take a minute but I don't think there is much savings in weight for that little bit so I'm leaving it solid. Still weighs less than the Ninja one.

    [​IMG]

    I did turn the top diameter to just under 28mm for the KTM top triple to slide over. It's way long obviously. It then needs to get drilled and tapped for an M20 1.5 bolt. I thought I had about 4 of those aluminum steering stem KTM bolts laying around but I can't find one.

    [​IMG]

    Motor is really clean inside, I have no idea why I took the stator cover off, I think I was actually thinking it was the transmission cover and I wanted to peek inside. That's what you get for not reading the manual first:deal

    [​IMG]
    #52
  13. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    I am soft man:D I like different bikes for different reasons. The FZ1 is fast, but the CBR is quicker. Much much quicker.

    Every single bike I have is fast. My Husky TXC511 is stupid fast, the FZ1, CBR. I kinda want a poke around bike. Something that is very reliable, nice soft hit to the motor but that can still get good MPG and pulll highway speeds when I want. This motor seems to have all of that. And it's fuel injected.

    Remember this bike will be running full dirt bike spec 300mm travel suspension. That's more than a Super Enduro, 990 etc. And it will be lighter than either of those bikes. Lightness really counts. You would be amazed at the difference when you can get a bike down to 350ish pounds that has a lot of power the ration makes for a lot of fun. I def won't be able to get the Ninja down to CBR levels but I think I can probably get with 25 lbs. Well under 400# though

    Get your ass over here and I'll take you on a Frankenbike adventure ride:deal
    #53
  14. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Hey Peter,

    The steering stems that I have seen have always been pressed into the lower clamp from the bottom, and they have a lip to create a positive stop. The only ones that are different are the billet KTM clamps that allow you to pull out the stem by hand, when you flip it by 180° you can change the offset as they are concentric.

    Just like on these I think you should thread the bottom of the stem for a large M20 1.5 bolt like you have on top, to prevent the stem from ever popping out of the hole because you just have a press fit and no other means of retention. Even just tightening the steering bearings you are putting a pulling force on it otherwise.


    By the way I recently bought a slightly bent 690 Enduro frame, just missing the headstock as that has to be sent in to KTM if you want a replacement. Thinking about having a pro join that up with the stem from my old 640 frame and somehow make the Versys engine fit in the middle, à la Mr. Quacamole. :wink:
    #54
  15. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Lukas,

    You are correct on the press fit. I've pressed enough of them out to know they have no chance of coming out but I am going to groove the bottom for an external snap ring in case. Every one I have done needs a big frame press and comes out with a bang. The bolt on top to load the bearings has no chance of pulling the stem out and then the triples are holding it in place with pinch bolts. I don't have a press but my buddy does. I wish I did because you really want the lower bearing in
    To get the measurements to machine the top and the length is critical too because it can't be too long or the bolt won't preload the bearings. I might machine up some dummy bearings from aluminum that slide on to use for mockup.


    I really think the ninja frame is ideal. It's nicely designed and has built in protection already easy to also adapt crash bars that would bolt right up.

    With the parts I'm making it's going to be relatively easy to adapt the running gear. I think you know how difficult it is to make a custom frame but I'm waiting for you to show me the way:deal quackamole frame is sweet for sure but thats a ton of work. I'm designing this bike with the idea that someone can take my drawings to a machinist and get the parts made, and the only tricky bit might be that I plan on bending steel to finish the subframe and thats hard to dimension.
    #55
  16. dentvet

    dentvet Long timer

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    Hey, was the shift lever dinged at all? sometimes a direct hit there goofs up the shift drum, etc. I have extra top nuts if you can't find yours. i probably dont have your address anymore, though.
    #56
  17. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Dent,

    I'll do another search, I have bought 10 or so KTM triples and have never needed one so I can't imagine where they are all hiding. I'll reach out to you if I can't find one and need to buy thanks!

    I've been waiting on parts and some specialized tooling to get the next part done, mounting the swingarm. I machined down the original axle from 20mm to 17mm so it could now function as the swingarm pivot bolt. Next I needed to make up some bosses to fit into the frame that would now locate the axle in the original 20mm frame holes.

    I made up one side and it fits great. It's a little long on purpose, I installed in in the frame (it's dead blow press fit:D) and ran the axle through. I then used a telescoping gauge to measure the opposite distance.

    Pic I stole from the web

    [​IMG]

    A little math to get them to the correct length and voila. I turned a chamfer around the inside of the spacer so that I have a groove to weld in to the frame. They aren't finished because I decided to buy an actual 17mm drill bit. I drilled it with a 21/32" which is 16.67mm. Then I realized that I don't have a drill chuck big enough to hold a 17mm shank so I'm waiting on a buddy to get one on loaner for me.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You can also see in this pic how far off the chain is from the KTM to the ninja. I successfully machined down the stock CS sprocket on my CBR to get it closer to the block. I then spaced out the rear sprocket using a plate of aluminum I drilled for the bolt holes. I will have to do the same thing here and also move the guard outboard.

    I've been buying steel rods in any diameter I can get my hands on, these I found in 3' lengths 1.5" dia at a scrap yard for $1.50/lb. Great to have on hand for things like this. I also try and keep a bunch of aluminum rods for the same thing.

    Then I need to make up a tube to fit between the arms of the swinger to keep the bearings in place. Once the swingarm is located I can cut the subframe to make room for the shock. I think redoing the subframe tubing will be easy with some new DOM tubing and my bender. Should actually look identical to the clutch side.

    The top shock mount I have lots of ideas for. I really want to get the suspension angles correct so I will probably spend quite a bit of time measuring and checking and checking again. First I need to finish up the front end and getting the forks on so I can get the rake correct.

    I got my new roller bearings for the steering tube and will finish up the lathe work to get the stem mounted.
    #57
  18. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Oh and regarding the transmission, everyone I have spoken with says it's normal, bike won't go into 2nd unless it's moving and faster than I would have been turning the CS sprocket. There is zero damage or any indication of any problems so that's welcome news. I also got the stick of Loctite metal magic as recommended by Dirty_Sanchez (Thanks!!) so I think the motor might be fine after all
    #58
  19. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Finished the swingarm mounts tonight. Second one went much faster. Also made up the spacer for the center of the swingarm.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You can see how much I need to make up for the chain to align. It's about 0.52" I'll get 0.125" from the sprocket spacer and I might be able to get some more haven't checked

    [​IMG]

    Almost done with the stem, threw some forks on just to see what's what

    [​IMG]

    Steering radius isn't great but tolerable. I might see what it looks like with a radiator before I start scalloping out the frame to increase.

    [​IMG]

    Contact points I'd have to clearance

    [​IMG]

    Ordered a new radiator should be here soon.

    Need to drill and tap the stem for the top bolt and then bring it over to a buddies for a pressin'

    Got a 3/4" drill chuck so I can finishing drilling my spacers to 17mm and then I can start cutting the frame and getting the new shock mount drawn up. Plan to have this waterjet cut and I will weld it together and then to the frame.
    #59
  20. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Nice work on the swingarm adapters Pete!

    I'm a bit concerned with spacing the sprocket out that much. I know some guys who used to do this on their RFS supermoto bikes due to clearance issues with fat wide racing slicks, but they always had problems with sprocket bolts bending or loosening up on their 450s and 560. Now you've got 65 RWHP running through there....

    Before welding the bushings into the frame I would do some testing to see how it holds up. One possible solution would be to simply move the swingarm over to the left a bit, and then lacing the rim with some offset to the right to center back in the line with the front wheel.
    #60