Project Full Circle:Ninja 650 gets a makeover

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by sailah, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Great point lukas, never thought to relace the wheel. I guess I'll need to make that decision soon as that will affect the shock mount position.

    I need to get a chain on that sprocket to see how close I can get to the engine case. I wonder how tolerant those wheels are to being moved over. Right now it's about 1/2" maybe a little more. Can you pull a rim over that far?

    With the cbr I only offset the sprocket 0.090" the rest I made up with machining down the cs sprocket. If it's not too much out of alignment I could just run it and have the chain out of alignment and see what happens.

    Thinking out loud I can make the upper shock mount a half inch too wide so I have some play room and then make up spacers to locate it once I decide what to do
    #61
  2. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    Sailah - yes, definitely make the chain line up first, then center the wheel. Yes, you can move the rim 1/2", but you might need different spokes.
    #62
  3. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Al you agree with lukas to take up the alignment by moving just the swingarm and relacing the wheel back to center?

    Makes sense and simplifies on the custom work. Spoke kits shouldn't be too bad
    #63
  4. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    I called buchanons and spoke:D to their spoke guy. He said the most they would true offset is 1/2". Total cost is about $250.

    Or I can buy another 950 swingarm which uses the stock ninja swingarm bolt and is much wider so I probably won't have alignment issue. Plus cush drive. Stronger but much more expensive

    I already have a 950 setup I can test from the fz1...
    #64
  5. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Got some more work done, lots of looking and staring and thinkin' though

    Took the direction from Lukas and moved the swingarm all the way to the left. The chain would now line up perfectly. Actually it's a little too much. I measured the distance moved with a telescope gauge and it's just over 0.50" as I thought. That's the limit Buchanons said they would build an offset into my wheel.

    [​IMG]

    So that looks about the best solution I have found. I get to use non machined sprockets and the regular sprocket will bolt as normal to the KTM wheel.

    Moving the swingarm also had some other effects, one good and one problem. It essentially made the shock mount almost on center as the shock mount on a stock KTM is to the right. This allowed the top shock mount to fit inside the right subframe rail. Barely. I'll still need to clearance it depending on where I end up with shock placement. Most of this will also depend on the numbers I get for rake and I won't get that until I finish the front end and drop the bike down.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    the problem I found, and it would have happened anyways, is that the top of the shock and the fuel pump are both occupying the same space. I would like to keep the stock tank but it's not going to happen with that fuel pump.

    My solution I am planning to try is one I learned from my engineer on superyacht days. If I plate off the tank where the pump is and tap a barb, I can then build a "day tank", maybe 1/2 gal. A simple cylindrical shape mounted to the left of the shock and then mount the fuel pump to that. Should work fine, get a little more capacity, and clear the tank from the shock. Hopefully:wink:
    #65
  6. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    Yep, that's also called a surge tank.

    There are two alternate solutions: build a swingarm from scratch, modify the fuel tank floor and move the fuel pump elsewhere in the tank.

    a
    #66
  7. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    I was about to give woodys my credit card for the offset wheel and zach asked if I have the clearance to move the tire over that far. I don't think I do because my sumo wheel was rubbing with a 160.

    Back to thinking
    #67
  8. yokesman

    yokesman Been here awhile

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    can you flip the shock,having the reservior at the swingarm?
    #68
  9. cedric

    cedric Been here awhile

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    Splice two dirt swingers together to make a wider one? Or just slice/widen the one you have?

    Cool build btw.
    #69
  10. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    No the ends of the shock are different
    #70
  11. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Yeah thats asking quite a bit of my welding abilities to trust that:lol3

    I think I'm going to go with my original plan of turning down the cs sprocket along with a small spacer for the rear sprocket and any other alignment I'll leave to the chain
    #71
  12. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Also might be worth looking into a linkage rear end like a yz450 a that mounts the shock lower and vertical instead of the angle required by the ktm
    #72
  13. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Can you get hold of a 990/950 swing arm?
    I'm working on a replacement shock to suit that swing arm and if it works i'll let you know how I did it.
    Should be a way cheaper than a 990/950 shock and work just as well if not better.
    #73
  14. dentvet

    dentvet Long timer

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    Does the husaberg PDS have the rez located differently?:deal

    I think I spaced my sprocket 17mm. KTMKLX spaced his out too and has ridden his pretty extensively without trouble. I guess we are both running cush hubs, though. This is not to try to talk you out of a better solution. You could whip up a billet adapter that utilizes short bolts pretty easily, i'd bet.
    #74
  15. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Yep I have a 950 swingarm and shock on my FZ1. The only issue I have with that is cost. I paid dearly for that entire setup. I think between the wheel, brake, shock and swinger you are easily over $1000. Plus it's much heavier and I want the narrower rear rim that the dirt bikes have

    I don't know about the Bergs but I have about 7 buddies with them locally I could measure. I'm sorta thinking they are the same, but maybe not.

    I don't know if I have that much real estate to space the rear sprocket or I'll be into the swingarm with the teeth.

    I'm also thinking that I would love to put together a reasonable builders kit to duplicate what I am doing with my bike if someone wants to do the same. If I start getting crazy with one off stuff, it'll be too expensive for someone to redo. If I can keep the build to simple parts that I would put together in a kit, the rest of the suspension parts could be purchased on ebay etc.

    I'm going to buzz off the CS sprocket and find a 520 chain and see how close I can get the chain to the case. That would be the easiest and cheapest method to getting this alignment issue solved. It would allow the swingarm to remain centered, wheel centered. I would have to redo the subframe spar but that's easy. I don't think I'd be too worried about the bolts, although Lukas does speak from experience. I could always source some turbo bolts from McMaster that are much stronger than stock.

    I did measure the tire to swingarm distance and I have just about an inch

    [​IMG]

    What is more concerning is the spoke to caliper clearance is pretty close as it is and shifting the rim over is going to make that even closer

    [​IMG]

    Here's the setup on the CBR and this is the exact wheel and tire I will be running and I have the same model swingarm and brake ready to go

    [​IMG]
    #75
  16. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    I'm tellin' ya, man... a custom SA will solve ALL your problems. You can use the PDS shock, but pass it through the SA with the lower mount poking out the underside. Stock shock, stock rim, stock sprockets, stock gas tank --- all possible if you do the SA.

    Also, don't sweat getting the wheel centered on the chassis too much: Airhead BMWs for years ran a 1" offset, and my beloved Honda Hawk NT had a 1/2" offset. You'll never ever notice it.
    #76
  17. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    #77
  18. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    I did something similar when I fitted a different shock to my dr650.
    I had plans to put a remote reservoir on the shock but I ended up just rewelding the reservoir in a different position so it cleared the frame.
    It worked great but I did use a linkage shock for my linkage suspension instead of a pds shock
    #78
  19. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    Al,

    It's not that I don't believe you I just don't see where the benefits would be to go through that much work. My issue is centering the wheel and chain alignment. Personally I would prefer to do what I did before on my last bike which is take care of at at the sprocket. Moving the swingarm created a whole host of expenses and unforeseen problems. Building a custom arm I am sure I could do, but there is no way to get that beautiful factory look and I don't want some enormous thing back there. I'm not sure my aluminum welding and fabricating is up to snuff to trust it to take the kinds of loads it would be subjected to with a single point shock load.

    I had a look last night on the KTM swingarm I have on the CBR. I can still cheat the rear sprocket out another 1/8" until it hits one of those plastic caps on the SA. So I will do that. I looked at the CS sprocket and it has room to go in towards the case plenty. I have to remove it though and see how it's constructed, my guess is that it looks like every other CS sprocket and it has a polished spacer that goes through the seal. I'll remove the spacer and take it down as much as I can safely do. Let's say I can get 1/4" on that. Maybe 3/16" The remainder is not going to be noticeable and the chain has some inherent flexibility.

    As far as the other work entailed, making the surge tank is fairly simple, and I needed to reweld and bend some tubing anyways on the subframe. But that stuff is all easy.

    I don't want you to think I'm discounting your idea because you always offer excellent advice, I just think the amount of time I would spend to create a swingarm would far exceed the benefits. Plus if I want to make the kit for someone else to follow, that is going to be an expensive thing to have fabricated and I only want to have to send out a small box of CNC'd parts and a couple of tubing bends for the subframe.

    But if I'm wrong I'll humbly eat crow and start fabricating. I'll fly Luke out here for a SA session:D

    Joe, I'm hoping it doesn't get to that. One thing I have learned about these builds, which is why I am fighting the urge to get crazy with a Sawzall, sometimes it's better to leave things stock. I've created hundreds of hours of work for myself trying to make things better in certain areas then stock. I usually end up with a result not as good as stock and a lot of spent time.
    #79
  20. Motorfiets

    Motorfiets Long timer

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    you sure they can't be changed out?
    #80