R1150GSA Pinging

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by GS-Jake, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    I'm sure those things do make an improvement and don't doubt your ability to do the work. But it seems like a big effort with the risk of making new spark tables.

    From my flying days I have a lot of experience with mixture management. With only the replacement of the stock O2 sensor with one that transitions at 13.8 or 14.1, the 1150 is transformed in performance. You can wait for closed loop adaptation to get things in sync or boost the fuel pressure or shift IAT to speed the adaptation process.

    The other approach, also relatively easy, that I haven't tried are Lennies sprockets. I don't know how the performance gains compare with the simple lambda shift, but the off-the-shelf advance sprockets sound pretty easy.

    All that said, many of us are very interested in your data.
  2. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    John,
    A question: If you compare the data you read from the chip with the data I measured on my 1150RT, something looks wrong with your data, it shows high advance at low rpm and all throttle opening. My measure data shows advance increasing with rpm and TPS until 48 degrees, same place closed loop stops by my measurements.

    My plots are very typical of most engines. Advance with rpm but reduce the advance with lower manifold vacuum.

    Can you explain your spark advance data?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  3. JohnGS1100

    JohnGS1100 Been here awhile

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    Only the last picture is from me. This map is Experimental, i post it for example. But is near the correct results.
    The advance is higher at low and middle rpn that the original map, and a little high at high rpn. What you can't undestand please ? At the left of table is the load of thottle and at high of table is the rpn. The first and second picture are not from me.

    At full open thottle, the ecu open the loop for any rpn (this help the acceleration). The same happen after 5.200 rpn for any result of thottle. I think this happen by the yellow plug. maybe the pink plug keep close the loop at all rpn at all route of thottle, i dont know, i check it when i will put a wideband on engine, i will post. (I have only two months the bike, and i was buy it in a bad state).

    maybe this is the answer on your question.
  4. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    John, The first picture is data that I've taken and plotted from my R1150. The second is what you said is the standard data read from the Motronic Chip.

    I doesn't look like spark data because the advance numbers vs RPM and TPS in your table from the Motronic don't have the usual pattern. The plot I showed is typical for many vehicles. As I said earlier, the advance should increase with RPM and increase with TPS up to 48 degrees throttle and then be reduced. Maybe your SW is reading the wrong information. RB
  5. JohnGS1100

    JohnGS1100 Been here awhile

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    This is the original map on monotronic ecu.

    Advance map :

    [​IMG]

    This is the mod map.

    Advance new map :
    [​IMG]

    The numbers (value) in table, is not degress. Is a number between (0..255). Look the last number at full open thotlle at 7.500 rpn. On original map the value is 37, on mod map is 42. So the advance is higher 42-37/37 = 5/37 = 0,135 than mean +13,5%. But the real advance by mod map is higher about 5 %. Is difficult to explane this, the parameters of software and the value (0..255) is not analogic by real degress, etc the advance go on +9 degress on number 55, +10 degress on number 62 and +X degress on number 100-255.
  6. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Hi John,
    I'm trained as an engineer and in the early days wrote a lot of assembly language code for control systems. Thanks for the detail but could you explain the whole algorithm? I'd like to take your data, convert the whole table to a degrees-advance table and then plot it in comparison to my measurements.

    Also, have you found the Dwell table? My GS-911 reports Spark Advance and Dwell.
    RB
  7. JohnGS1100

    JohnGS1100 Been here awhile

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    The software have a function to calculate spark advance but for else ecu, not for monotronic. I try to get it another time, because need many mathematical calculations to found values.
  8. JohnGS1100

    JohnGS1100 Been here awhile

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    This is a table with real values of degress (approximate).

    Original Map Advance BMW R1100GS

    [​IMG]


    3D TABLE

    [​IMG]
  9. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Thanks for the displays they're interesting and different than the 1150RT as you can see in the graphs. It looks to me though like your load axis is mis-labeled. What you've labeled 13 is high load and what you've labeled 100 is actually low load. So if you left the table alone but inverted the labeling on the load axis it would look pretty good. In other words I believe your top row of data is high load and the bottom row is low load. Rpm looks correct.

    Here is the general shape of these (generic data below):
    In general:

    Low MAP (low engine load) = more spark advance
    High MAP (high engine load) = less spark advance
    Low RPM = less spark advance
    High RPM = more spark advance
    The spark advance table is a 12 by 12 matrix (144 values) based on engine RPM and MAP sensor values. A further table of 10 values is used to make adjustments for engine coolant temperature.

    Example Spark Advance Table

    [ign_table(rpm,kpa)]

    130kPa 0.0 2.0 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 31.0 32.0 32.0
    120 0.0 3.0 7.0 11.0 15.0 19.0 23.0 27.0 31.0 32.0 33.0 33.0
    110 0.0 4.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 33.0 34.0 34.0
    100 0.0 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
    90 0.0 8.0 11.0 15.0 19.0 23.0 30.0 33.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
    80 2.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 30.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
    70 4.0 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 30.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
    60 6.0 10.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 31.0 34.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
    50 8.0 12.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 35.0 36.0 36.0 36.0 36.0
    40 8.0 14.0 18.0 22.0 26.0 30.0 34.0 36.0 38.0 38.0 39.0 40.0
    30 8.0 16.0 19.0 23.0 27.0 31.0 34.0 37.0 39.0 40.0 41.0 42.0
    20 8.0 16.0 20.0 24.0 28.0 32.0 34.0 38.0 41.0 44.0 46.0 46.0
    ........500 750 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 RPM
  10. JohnGS1100

    JohnGS1100 Been here awhile

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    The real area of thottle by acelaration :

    [​IMG]
  11. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Hi John,
    Your spark table only makes sense if you relable the axis. It is upside down otherwise. As I mentioned two posts back, low throttle angle (which is high manifold vacuum) has higher advance than high throttle angle (which is low vacuum).

    Once you make that change, the data looks close to most spark advance tables and matches the measurements I've made. The corrected table is below and assumes that the numbers are correct, just in the wrong order.

    Perhaps inside the Motronic the axis is pressure, not throttle angle. That would explain your software's misinterpretation of it. I hope this helps you with your work.

    RB

    [​IMG]
  12. JohnGS1100

    JohnGS1100 Been here awhile

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    Yes perhaps it as an error. Mauby the number are negative value on table.
    I remap all ecu by experience, not by real dergrees. When i remap the ecu then i mesure the fuell ratio by a wideband, by a exhaust's themperature and by a knock sensor.

    When the fuell ratio on wideband shows 14,7:1 at iddle, 14,2-13,8 between 1.200-5.200 rpn and 13,8-12,5 until 7.500, and the engine has no knocking by a 95 octane gas, then it is all rigths. fuell economy by power !!
  13. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Thank makes sense. Thank you for putting the time and effort in to make this table readable by the rest of us. It is appreciated. RB
  14. mouthfulloflake

    mouthfulloflake Not afraid

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    Roger, have you verified your HES plate under the pulley?

    the chart appears as if max advance is 43-44 degrees, and it seems to go there at throttle application under 20%
    this would be in line with my knocking/pinging issues with low octane fuel , and warm weather.

    I retarded my HES plate ( static timing) as far as it would go, just curious where your plate lies with the data you collected?





  15. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Hey MFF, Good question. The answer is I have never checked my static timing. I guess that I should. All I can tell you is I make a lot of test rides and often drop my head to the tank to listen for knocking. Only once have I heard anything and that was when I programmed a large lambda shift, didn't allow time for adaptation, and put the motor under a high load. That was about 8 months ago, one time.

    My plots are the data stream coming from my Motronic via the GS-911. So those are the Motronic calculated numbers, with the Motronic ASSUMING that I have my static timing set right. I'll try and measure that sometime soon.

    After John did some work to turn the Binary into degrees (nice work John) and I realized his left-side axis was upside down, there is a pretty tight correlation with my Motronic data. RB
  16. Mr. Canoehead

    Mr. Canoehead Taste Gunnels!

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    If you get pinging/knocking, you'll know! The one time I got it after having to fill up with regular, I was shocked by how loud it was. :eek1 I am used to hearing it in cars but with the exposed cylinders on the BMW, it comes through clear as day even at 50mph with earplugs on. I DO NOT want to hear that again!
  17. TuefelHunden

    TuefelHunden Been here awhile

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    Canoe, I hear ya on that "you'll know" comment; but in reading a multitude of posts where "ping" was discussed, I'm not so sure it is all that obvious that most riders know much about ping. No matter what you do to the map, AF or ignition, you can still have detonation (ping). I've had my '11 1200GS for right on a year. I run mid-grade 89 ron/mon divided by two because that's what my owners manual says to use. I don't recall a single case of ping. I'm just getting to the point I can feel what gear I'm in in slow turns, but do occasionally get into a lugging situation, a situation I hate and one where detonation usually occurs. Where I'm heading with all of this is the way you operate the throttle, the gear that you are in AND staying away from cheap ass low octane have IMO way more to do with ping than maps.
  18. Mr. Canoehead

    Mr. Canoehead Taste Gunnels!

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    I believe your 1200 has a knock sensor, so if you do get pinging, the ECU will immediately pull timing. That won't help with lugging but at least the problem isn't compounded. Most modern cars have knock sensors, so hearing pinging is getting more and more rare.

    In my turbo- and blower- equipped cars, pinging is VERY BAD. I once read that one ping under boost can destroy the apex seals in a Mazda RX-7 turbo.

    A friend of mine swears that his '08 1200 will lose power after one tank of regular and it won't come back unless he resets the ECU, which suggests that the 1200 ECU immediately writes spark retard to the tables. He is a pretty knowledgeable guy (aka OCD Engineer, like me), so I have to believe him. It's ironic (and not in a Alanis Morrisette way) - he has a knock sensor, yet he is way more militant about Octane levels than I am because I just have to take it easy for one tank, he has to reset the ECU!

    However, I agree with your comments, generally. When I got the pings on my bike, I just ran it at higher RPM in a lower gear until I used up that tank of gas. It only happened when I rolled on the throttle in 6th at low rpm to pass someone. I do have a bad habit of wacking open the throttle at low revs because the PCIII allows me to do so with no lugging (or pinging).
  19. TuefelHunden

    TuefelHunden Been here awhile

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    I think it does have a knock sensor too, but am not sure. The lugging is an I/O problem, Ignorant / Operator. Still trying to train that dumb ass who sits in my saddle :D What my point is is that for some very smart people, it is part of the MC experience to get down into the minutia of tuning maps. Motorcycling is way more than putting in gas, hitting the starter and droning down the road. You can, though, compensate for a whole bunch of flaws by adapting your skills to the bike. For a lot of us real old geezers, we remember when that was almost the only option you had.
  20. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    Pinging that you hear is certainly bad, but the pinging that you don't hear is equally bad. It's not uncommon for low level pinging to be happening and the operator doesn't hear it. That is the real advantage of a knock sensor.