R1150GSA Pinging

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by GS-Jake, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    Wanted to update the general Steptoe mod thread with something I just tried. To recap I have a 2002 R1150GS Adv, Y-pipe + stock canister, K&N. Did the jumper mod to catless map a while back with good results for thousands of miles. However this summer while on a long ride, got some pinging again. Conditions were very hot, slow, stuck behind a truck for miles coming into Lizard Head pass south of Telluride (maybe 10-11k ft elevation). Needed to get on it to pass and got the worst pinging ever, felt like it was going to stall. Thought maybe it was gas, later filled the tank and got some more under similar conditions a few days later.

    We were riding with a Canadian fellow, and using hand signals and crude pantomime he was able to communicate that he used a Dynojet PCIII wideband to good results on his GSA back home (Hi Ian). So I kept that in mind and waited for one to show up on fBAy or Adv flea market. One did and I got it.

    There are only 2 maps available for the R1150GS. Stock and modded (for hot cams + porting + exhaust, not sure where they got this stuff). The stock map however is richer in places plus the wideband in the closed loop section takes it to 13.8 AFR, richer than stock. What I did was select the stock map, but kept the Steptoe jumper mod in place. So what the system is doing is taking the base jumper catless motronic map and running it a bit (or a lot) richer in places, but then in the closed loop section slightly richer with much better closed loop control from the wideband.

    Holy cow what a difference! Smoothness, power, TQ down low, etc. Just blew me away, like a completely different bike. Was not able to replicate ambient conditions for prior pinging but the change is obvious. Pretty clear even the catless jumper map was running a bit (or a lot) lean. All part throttle surging @ 3-4k RPM (which was getting annoying) just gone. Even the sound was different, more like liquid/fluid pump running instead of agricultural metallic.

    One thing that may have happened I don't know enough about how the motronic works though. I understand adaptation takes place and it may be over time it adapted away from the initial richer settings. The PCIII takes over the O2 sensor completely, the new wideband sensor output plugs directly into the PCIII and does not even talk to the motronic. On other bikes I have recently found out that earlier PCIII's where they recommended you run in open loop (disconnect O2 sensor completely) when doing that the ECU defaults to a mid-lean map. So now the procedure is to use a cat eliminator/simulator to fool the ecu into thinking a sensor is connected, and defaults to the true base open loop map (richer).

    Anyway the PCIII USB with wideband sensor has a plug for the old O2 sensor harness and I suspect it does this to defeat a default motronic adaption to no sensor. So perhaps the PCIII now sits on the base non-adapted jumper map, richens this up here and there, and runs a tight closed loop to 13.8 AFR in the closed loop section. Lots of room to adjust here, too.

    I can post up a pic/screenshot of the Dynojet software map if anyone is interested. Comments welcome, the above is some conjecture as to how the whole system works. Best part of this is I got the PCIII + wideband sensor for $150 shipped from a member here.
  2. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    As I understand the workings of the EFI, 02 Sensors & the bikes computer - the computer takes its readings from air sensor, throttle body sensor, engine temp etc. first until the bike runs and warms up then it takes the readings from the 02 sensors once the bike is off the enrichening at start up. The computer does learn to the extent that if you unhook the battery it will loose the previous running info as to how much fuel the injectors should add etc. Hook the battery back up and take the bike for a ride and it will relearn this info from the 02 Sensor.

    The 02 sensors convert their reading into voltage and then the computer takes this voltage reading, compares it to a table stored in the computer's memory and then adds the applicable amount of fuel to the engine. As you drive it is always updating the reading from the 02 sensor and adjusting the amount of fuel to keep the AF mixture at the factory spec, probably in the range of 14.2-14.7 to 1.

    The trick with EFI systems that use 02 Sensors, both types of sensors, is to fool them into adding more fuel so that the mixture is more in the range of 12.5-13.8 which is much better for performance and cooling purposes in the engine. There are many ways to do this.

    I know this is a Harley paragraph and you may not want to read it but both manufactures use 02 Sensors, EFI & computers - so tuning info is similar for both. I don't know if the outfit that makes XIED's ( you use them between the 02 Sensor and computer on a EFI Harley - Harley's use closed loop 02 Sensors ) makes any for BMW's but that is one way to accomplish what you are doing but simpler. The XIED is basically a resistor that is plugged in between the 02 Sensor & the computer. The XIED site has a lot of info about EFI/Computer systems in general that is a good read to understand how this stuff works. I run the XIED's on my Harley and they make a subtle but noticeable difference in roll on acceleration, engine heat & overall drive ability. Add in Iridium spark plugs and the engine really comes to life. I know it doesn't make sense but the two work very well together.

    When I had my R1100R they were noted for surging etc. so lots went the Booster Plug way, which basically moved the air temp sensor out of the breather box and into the air stream. The end result was that the computer sensed the cooler air so it added more fuel. I actually picked up a spare sensor for an R1100R and did some experimenting at home. Placed the sensor in the fridge and then out in room air and then heated it slightly. Using an ohm meter you could see the resistance change depending on the temp that the sensor was receiving. It was an interesting experiment and it showed how subtle changes in temp affected the resistance level, which in turn affected the voltage that the computer was receiving, and in turn affected how much fuel the EFI system delivered to the engine.

    This in a nutshell is how all of the add on's work, they trick the computer into adding more fuel.
  3. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Thanks adding this. Isn't it tremendous how well the R1150 runs and how strong it is when you give it 5-6% more fuel?

    Until you ride a bike with the richer mixture, it's hard to believe just how much stronger the R1150s run, especially between 2000 and 3500 RPM. The PC III is a good way to achieve that goal. It has a wideband O2 and it has Closed Loop. Surging, pinging, bogging down--all things of the past. It even sounds better, although I don't know why.

    Another way to accomplish the same thing at about 1/3 the cost is to replace the narrowband O2 sensor with a Wideband O2. The approach I took is in this long thread (Motronic with Wideband O2. I've tried mixtures from 2% richer to about 10% richer. I've also tried 6% leaner. Just like every gasoline motor I've owned, there's a sweet spot. The boxer seems to love 13.8 to 13.5:1. I also boosted the fuel pressure but that's optional, it just help the Motronic adapt to the richer mixture faster, by having the effect of making the stock Open Loop table produce a richer fueling. I've got several thousand miles on the bike now and it has worked perfectly.

    Have a look at the charts below, they're a pretty good representation of how the Motronic works with Wideband O2 and with the PC III. Many changes made to the Motronic MA 2.4 on the R1150s do get Adapted out. Since the PC III runs Motronic Open Loop its Wideband Closed Loop and other changes don't get adapted out. The plug is just to keep it from throwing an error code.

    The beauty of the PC III is that it's Plug 'n Play. The beauty of the Wideband O2 is that it is well integrated with the normal Motronic function. Both get you to richer mixtures.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  4. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Yup that's about right. If you look at the block diagram above, it compares the amount of fuel the O2 sensor says you need to hit 14.7 with the amount the Fuel Table says you need to hit 14.7 and then creates an adjustment or Adaptation Value. They get learned by the Motronic for a range of RPMs and Throttle Positions. It takes a while of riding with a steady throttle hand and various RPM, TPS combinations to get it to adjust.

    I know the inventor of the XIED for harleys. He has a range of really good devices but they don't work on BMWs with Motronic. The basic idea is to shift the switching point of the O2 sensor, something that I've done, and he's done too, with the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 sensor. The LC-1 works on BMWs and Harleys but is about twice as much as his dedicated XIED at nightrider.com.

    The idea of adding a different O2 sensor isn't so much to fool the Motronic (like that old commercial, "you can't fool mother nature"), the Motronic drives the fueling to line up with the switching point of the O2 sensor. The stock, Narrowband O2, switches at 14.7:1, a relatively lean mixture. By adding an LC-1 and programing its switching point, you're directing the Motronic to align to the mixture you've selected. I'm running 13.8:1 and the bike loves it just like the previous poster mentioned.
  5. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    Roger,
    Thanks for your response and the cool diagrams.

    So if I get what you are saying the PCIII does in fact turn off all motronic adaptation, is that correct? That was my initial interpretation/conjecture based on the install wiring and some understanding of PCIII operation on other bikes. It also has a resistor across the old O2 sensor plug acting as a cat eliminator forcing base un-adapted open loop operation of the motronic. As I said above other bikes when you do not do that and run a non-wideband PCIII (which means disconnect the O2 sensor) it will default not to the assumed base map in the PCIII but a mid lean map (and throw a code sometimes), adapting away from the programmed table to do so. Dynojet either did not know this five years ago or did not say it, even in the models they advised disconnecting the O2 sensor for. Only recently have I found that you need to run a plug to ensure true open loop operation at the programmed PCIII values (in my case on a FJR1300 and a Roadliner).

    edit: my understanding is when no O2 senor is detected, the native OEM ECU (motronic in BMW case) defaults to an open loop map, but not THE base open loop map that the PCIII deltas assume is in place. It is a leaner one. So that the PCIII fuel tables + open loop will be off, as they assume true base map. This is for older non-wideband models.

    The additional advantage to me of the PCIII + wideband on the GS is the programmable base map it has, which is a 18 x 9, 2d array of +/- tweaks to fueling (rpm vs tps). Unless I do not understand the diagrams, that cannot be done by just adding a wideband sensor. The other thing that can be done is dial the AFR you want closed loop mode to target, via the nice software interface. Comes set at 13.8 but that is easy to tweak.

    As far as cost, the price used of the PCIII with wideband sensor was barely more than a new wideband sensor. New they are 500 or so, but they are no longer in production, or at least superceded by the PCV. I do not even know if they have one for the GS yet. Anyway what counts is how it runs, and it has never run like this.

    The other thing I kind of liked was running "stock" PCIII map on top of the Steptoe mod for catless. The catless map option in the PCIII assumed a bunch of other hi-po mods I do not have.

    Here is the map, this sits on top of the Steptoe jumpered catless (base unadapted open loop version), gray area is closed loop...

    [​IMG]
  6. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    Yep the trick is to trick the computer. I can't see why a stock BMW running the factory 02 sensor wouldn't benefit from an XIED or something similar, you'd just have to change the connectors. It would be an interesting experiment as both bikes factory stock are set up to run the 14.7 to 1 ratio.

    If any of you have airheads from the early 70's before the EPA got heavily involved the carbs on them where designed to deliver a 13.8 to 1 AFM. Also if you do any reading on performance that range of 13.8 to 1 gives you the best performance and gas mileage.

    So its no wonder the modern bikes run better at 13.8 than 14.7.
  7. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    In addition to running vastly better/smoother, it seems to run cooler too.
  8. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    With the LC-1 installed I can data log and graph all the maps on my 1150. They are all designed for Closed Loop operation so are all about 14.7:1 in the cruising range but differ based on the coding plug which is supposed to let the Motronic know what intake tubes, heads and cams your engine has, as these differ among the various R1150 models. When the ma 2.4 Motronic doesn't get a valid O2 signal it makes the map leaner and richer with a less desirable fueling pattern (check the last few pages of my Wideband o2 thread for an exa,ple). This is the pattern the PC III has to work with. Maybe a bigger difference is the spark timing map which also changes with coding plug.

    Once you reset the Motronic, without a valid O2 signal, it never adapts, that's right.

    Without data logging the steptoe map mod I wouldn't make any assumptions about fueling.

    If I owned a PC III, I would put the stock coding plug on my bike, reset the Motronic, set every cell in the map to plus 6-10% depending on whether I ran E10 (10% if E10) and program the O2 to Closed Loop 13.8. That would nicely rich open loop and closed loop. If you feel like experimenting give that a try. You could then reduce the percentage additions for large TPS and rpm values.

    Fun stuff. And yes, it will run 25-50F cooler exhaust temps. But as you said the best part is the performance, its astounding.
  9. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The xied works by varying the low side signal line on the Delphi (I believe) ECU used on Harleys. It's a simple plug n play for those bikes. As designed I don't believe it will work on the Motronic which has a very different O2 sensor input circuit, having discussed just that with the designer of the Xied. He might be able to design one that would work, but for about twice the money you can add a full Wideband O2 like the LC-1 and get an easy to program setting AND data logging capability, around $170 last time I looked on amazon.
  10. Mr. Canoehead

    Mr. Canoehead Taste Gunnels!

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    Hey Al;

    I know I have a funny Canadian accent but "crude pantomime" ? ;)

    I'm really glad to hear that it worked for you.

    Ian



    Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2
  11. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    Hi Ian,
    Good to hear from you. Yes this was a great mod, thanks for suggesting it. I had to puzzle out how I'd run it in conjunction with the jumper mod but it seems to have worked out quite well so far.

    We are in the middle of the first major winter storm of the season, all those high altitude areas we went riding are getting hit with several feet of snow next few days. Looks like the GS will be hibernating soon. But not until after I install the new HID kit later today! Ha ha! Then it will be time to switch over to the snowboards for 5-6 months.

    Wolf Creek Pass forecast

    http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...UB&textField1=37.3951&textField2=-106.611&e=0

    Stay warm.

    Al
  12. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    OK this is good info. The reason I want to stick with the Steptoe catless map (as opposed to upping all the cells 6-10%) is the flow pattern and likely VE vs RPM has changed a lot removing the cat, so the jumper map for that (I hope) takes some of it into account. At least on other motors that I saw the maps for, removing cats was not always just lean everywhere by the same amount.

    I did NOT reset the motronic yet so that is the first thing I'll try. BTW the closed loop area and the area to the right of that where the cells have changed most from zero is exactly where I had the most problems with pinging.

    Anyway it is trivial to change settings and I still have the older CCP so one day I will try your suggestion and see. Right now it is snowing and it looks like riding season may be over until April.
  13. ragtoplvr

    ragtoplvr Long timer

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    I use Bosch 4417 plugs, with 4 electrodes, I always had pinging at high RPM, especially when I did not run hard due to commuting duty for a few weeks. Besides better running, these plugs totally eliminated the pinging.I can even run 89 in the winter, summer still need 91 though. Try them
  14. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    Yes it would be interesting to see if it would work. Both systems are running closed loop in the off idle to 3/4 throttle range, and both are using 02 Sensors that send an electronic voltage signal to the ECM. With the plug & play of the XIED's it makes it a very simple cost effective system.
  15. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    Roger,
    Just read your Wideband thread, wow. Great work and very educational.
  16. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Here is an interesting comparison chart showing the benefits of various richer mixtures. Xied Vied LC-1 Comparisons. The roll on acceleration in 4th gear from 35 - 65 is interesting. Steven Mullen, founder of Nightrider and patent-holder, has run a lot of different mixture comparisons, as I've done on my R1150. My results with the LC-1 tracked his pretty closely except the Boxer engine doesn't see much of a fuel consumption increase, only about 3% for a 6% richer mixture. That's due to some of the extra fuel actually producing extra power.

    I'm now of the opinion that most of the benefit for the PC III on Boxers is due to the 13.8:1 Closed Loop function.
  17. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    In my case I can't really detect any increase in fuel consumption with the XIED's installed. I concur the 13.8.1 is a very good all around AFR for any gas combustion engine.
  18. Mr. Canoehead

    Mr. Canoehead Taste Gunnels!

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    Warning: Long engineer post attached :lol3

    When I bought my PCIII from another inmate, he said that he had had his bike dyno tuned and I found that the map he supplied was different from the stock PCIII map. I didn't know what his mods were (or how competent his shop was), so I went with the standard Dynojet map but I did save that custom map. What is interesting is that they defuelled at 10% throttle (maybe looking for fuel economy?) and added more fuel at 80%. THE WFO map is pretty similar to the stock map. They also tweaked within Closed Loop but I assume that the PCIII will ignore that. Anyway, here it is....

    [​IMG]

    Dynojet offers a AFR display that plugs into the PCIII. I thought about buying it but then my short attention span got diverted to other farkles since I was pretty happy with the standard PCIII map.

    My bike will happily pull from under 3000 rpm in 6th - there's not a lot of thrust but it is smooth. I am always amazed when inmates say that they can't get smooth running on an 1150 below 70mph in 6th - I am in 6th at 50mph regularly (caveat: I do have the enduro transmission).

    I believe that the PCIII does send O2 info to the ECU, it doesn't block the signal entirely, so I don't think that the ECU goes to always open mode. The PCIII doesn't just modify the signal from the O2 sensor to the ECU, it also modifies the output that goes to the injectors, which is actually how it richens up the mixture. I wondered if the Motronic would learn and try to adapt around the PCIII but it doesn't seem to have done so.

    I tried the Steptoe mod on my bike before installing the PCIII and it didn't seem to do anything at all. The Motronic version is different on the single and twinspark engines, and the map on Canadian and US bikes is reported to be different, so YMMV.

    Looks like I have some reading of Roger 04 RT's thread to do.
  19. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    After reading the PC III installation for the R1150GS, it is more clear than the instructions for the R1150RT which I had read previously. Something does plug into the Motronic's O2 connector from the PC III. I don't know if it's merely a bypass or if it is sending an active signal to the Motronic. There is very little documentation, think I'll give them a call next week to discuss.
  20. fred flintstone

    fred flintstone Been here awhile

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    Here is the guy I was emailing with in case you need a contact


    Dustin Schaller
    Senior Product Manager
    Dynojet Research
    800-992-4993
    dusty@dynojet.com
    www.dynojet.com
    www.powercommander.com

    Also here are the O2 simluators ("Oxygen Optimizer Kit") for other apps, which I supect is what the GS wideband does with the empty OEM sensor plug, or something similar

    http://www.powercommander.com/power...ntParts/powercommander_replacement_parts.aspx

    I ordered 2 of these for couple of other bikes I have with older non wideband PCIII's running O2 sensor disconnected. Will report back on how they run after I install and test.