R60/5 rebuild nears completion – with some puzzles. . .

Discussion in 'Airheads' started by Tin Woodman, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. Plaka

    Plaka Brevis illi vita est

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    Nothing. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

    This is not a place for the uninitiated to be fooling around.
  2. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Yep, something's definitely not right - put the cover back on but problem persists. Logically, I should be able to shift through all 4 gears by manually spinning the input shaft on the bench. This is getting interesting. Will let you know what I find out.
  3. Plaka

    Plaka Brevis illi vita est

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    How to convert a 4 speed into a 3 speed. Hmmm...might be threadworthy.
  4. bmwrench

    bmwrench Long timer

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    You need to turn the output shaft to get them to change gears.
  5. Kai Ju

    Kai Ju Long timer

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    .........and the input shaft at the same time no less.
    In other words, you need three hands.
    In my experience what usually happens is that the shift doesn't 'complete' until you turn both shafts after moving the shift lever.
    Another way to do is to introduce drag to either input or output shaft while you're spinning the other. This simulates what happens in real life and will allow the tranny to shift.
  6. Plaka

    Plaka Brevis illi vita est

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    Shaft drag = rag draped over shaft with a weight vice gripped to it.
  7. Kai Ju

    Kai Ju Long timer

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    I've used old bungee cords before.
  8. Plaka

    Plaka Brevis illi vita est

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    Yes. I just wanted to get a vice grip in somewhere. The Rusty One is big on them.
  9. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Some of us seem a bit testy today! I'm no exception but before I proceed, let me assure you I don't want anything - simply making a couple of observations. In order -

    1. I can now speak with more conviction about pawls, forks, shims, end play, camplates and dogs.
    2. I have not messed with any of these things.
    3. I now see why most of you do not mess with these things.
    4. Good lighting, bungee and three hands are your friends (thank you Kai Ju).
    5. I am not considering turning this into a cafe racer.

    That is all.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  10. Bill Harris

    Bill Harris Confirmed Curmudgeon

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    Dang. :)

    --Bill
  11. Lornce

    Lornce Lost In Place

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    Thank you.


    :D
  12. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Thanks Bmwrench. Very helpful. I determined I couldn't find neutral and that 3rd and 4th gears were binding. Brought it to my local guru who bench tested it and told me, "Something is causing binding in 3rd and 4th gears and whatever it is, it's preventing it from finding neutral.' He told me the bearings seem OK. Brought it back to my shop, then did extensive reading of Ausherman, Snowbum, Buchanan and of course, Anton's sites. It was Buchanan's excellent account that convinced me to take the next step so I marked the forks, heated the case and removed the gear cluster and forks.

    [​IMG]

    Bearings are good, dogs slide nicely, gears spin smoothly. I'm betting this tranny saw extensive service work 30 years ago but saw little use prior to my purchase. Lots of abuse leading to service work. Here's a clue - kick starter retaining pin massively worn probably due to bike being in poor state of maintenance, flat battery, etc. -

    [​IMG]

    Although kickstart shaft is pristine with no burrs - must be one of many new parts -

    [​IMG]

    Spent time analyzing how shift mechanism works. Interesting to simulate camplate working the forks through all four gears. This is neutral as was confirmed by testing neutral switch with cover on -

    [​IMG]

    If nothing else, had an opportunity to install new input shaft seal (duplex chain sprocket makes the ideal drift) -

    [​IMG]

    I realize you all recommend farming this work out to experts but I am a curious being and this was a great opportunity to learn. At this point, I'm thinking the problem was caused by misaligned forks. More to come. . .
  13. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    The number of people that do 5 speeds is small. The number that do 4 speeds is even smaller. Not many articles but I remember Matt Parkhouse did a series on the 4 speed in ON not too long ago.

    I don't know if we can access Owners News articles on the Web but you might find hard copies. I think it was a 3 or 4 part series on the 4 speed.
  14. Plaka

    Plaka Brevis illi vita est

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    Matt still does some bike work. Not what he used to. He maintains the 4 speeds are a lot stronger than the 5 speeds.

    One of the main causes of wear to the kickstart cotter is letting it get loose. Check the lever to see how ovaled out the hole is. You can shim the hole and simply replace the cotter.

    I believe you can simply turn the shift dogs around to account for wear. Matt did this to mine when it was popping out of first, and replaced some bearings.
  15. Bill Harris

    Bill Harris Confirmed Curmudgeon

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    Dang. You turnt that tranny into as pile o'parts. Now ya dunnit.

    Heavy kickstart use... See that pin/shaft pressed into the read cover that the kickstart gear rides on? It is prone to loosening with use and can migrate into the case. Cure is to center drill and tap that shaft (5 or 6mm thread) and bolt a large flat/fender washer on the backside/outside. Don't think I have a pic of that, let me dig...

    --Bill
  16. Pokie

    Pokie Just plain Pokie.

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    Yes, that's the best way to repair the kick start. I've been doing that for years.

    I really like the four speed transmissions and don't have a lot of use for the fives. I have four "five speed" transmissions in boxes out in the shop, they all have the same problem. The shift rings that are pushed by the shifting forks are also part of the gears on the "cluster" shaft. These gears are thin and kind of weak and are also broken easily. That doesn't sound like a problem except they can't be bought separately, you have to buy the whole darned shaft! I think the last time I priced the shaft, it was in the $900 range and that was several years ago.

    Back when I was wrenching, I used to collect as many trashed five speed transmissions as I could. If you take enough of them apart, you can press apart the cluster shafts and mix and match to get a few repaired. The problem here is it usually takes about five or six to get enough parts to complete one.
  17. AntonLargiader

    AntonLargiader Long timer

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    That issue is almost exclusively limited to the early 5-speeds. That part was strengthened twice within the first few years of production. It would be extremely rare to encounter that after MY1977 or so.
  18. Bill Harris

    Bill Harris Confirmed Curmudgeon

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    When I got my '73 /5 it was an orphaned waif-- the last one of last year's model, and a 600cc Toaster, when the new and improved /6's were on the showroom floor. Was able to bicker a good deal. At first I wished that I'd be able to get one with a 5-speed, but in retrospect, 5-speeds turned out to be so problematic (especially the early productions) that I'm glad I avoided them...

    --Bill
  19. skipn

    skipn Been here awhile

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    Whoa.... you guys on this forum scare me.

    When friends ask me about my old airhead I keep working on, I tell them it's more like working on tractors (which they know about, and I don't know squat about), and it's not rocket science.

    I say so because in the late 60's early 70's I worked in my dad's garage as a grease monkey along side some actual out of work rocket scientists on the Space Coast in Florida. They worked there just to put food on the table until things turned around in the space program. They actually BUILT the beer cans they shot off into the sky. As one of my surfing buddies once remarked, "These dudes know some far out stuff, man!"

    I was in awe with the knowledge that kind of floated around the shop. I'm impressed with the knowledge floating around this forum.

    I say "scare" in a nice way.
  20. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Agreed.

    Frankly, I've never seen anything like it. And it's more interesting when people share their stories - if we just limited ourselves to tech talk, things would get a bit dry around here. Some of this stuff has nothing to do with airheads or motorcycles for that matter. Don't care. Bring it on.