R60/5 rebuild nears completion – with some puzzles. . .

Discussion in 'Airheads' started by Tin Woodman, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. bmwrench

    bmwrench Long timer

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    I don't think the cam could be accurately held for grinding the quill in place. Cam grinding is a rough and scary thing to watch. The quill is not available separately. I was scheming to do billet camshafts at the time and needed to see just how BMW had machined the hole in the end of the camshaft.

    I would consider Loctiting the quill in place. The tricky part would be figuring out where to place it to get the ignition timing right. There have to be tons of used cams out there-I remember seeing drawers full of them when Bob's was still actively selling used parts. I wouldn't hesitate using a 308 in an R60; one of the guys at Bob's is running one in his R60/5, and I have installed R75 and R80 top ends on R60s using the shorter cam.
    #21
  2. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Disston, you could be right. While welding may be a bit aggressive, I wonder if the parts can be brazed. Of course, I'd have to get the alignment right - I wonder if there are index marks on the quill and the camshaft. Then again, a new camshaft may be the answer. Bmwrench, I just saw your post - hadn't considered Loctite. What a novel idea! Of course, I'd have to figure out how to pull the quill out first.

    By the way everyone, I am amazed by the support I'm getting - you guys don't even know me and you're already offering me parts. I obviously came to the right place.

    Question, if I install a used camshaft, what are the potential consequences and issues to be concerned about? For example, will I need to install new cam followers? Should I check the runout on the tip?

    Finally, a question for Chasbmw from England - is that a photo of the Khyber Pass?

    Something tells me I'll be solving this problem sooner than later - I pulled the transmission this afternoon when I got home from work in anticipation of pulling the crankshaft. What was supposed to be a 'nearing completion' project has suddenly reversed direction.
    #22
  3. Bill Harris

    Bill Harris Confirmed Curmudgeon

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    Shouldn't be that hard to fix. Unless there are some sorta index marks to re-index everything on the quill that it couldbe indexed by trail-and-error by eyeballing the ignition timing point vs the slots in the points plate. And you could secure the quill by Loctite and dutch-pinning. Still a crap-shot though, and it may be better to hunt up a good used camshaft. Evaluation is easy: if it looks good, it is. Ditto on the lifters. On the /5 you probably won't need to pull the flywheel to get at the oil pump rotor-- the keyway end of the camshaft will fit through the case. Tricky, but do-able (unless you were planning to do the Rear Main Seal anyway, then go for it. Remember to BLOCK THE CRANK if the flywheel comes off.

    Drop the oil pan, remove the pushrods/rocker arms and the cam can be weaseled out from the bottomside without needing to pull the cylinders. Worn as that chain is you will likely need a new crankshaft sprocket and borrow or steal a good puller. Pucker up, the crank sprocket is ~$150 nowadays. If the budget doesn't allow for that, just replace the chain and plan replace the new chain sooner (30K miles instead of 50K, no biggie) along with a new $procket later.

    Sounds horrendous, but it's not that bad.

    The "nearing completion" has not reversed, it's taken a side-trip. Better to have found out now that later...

    And a bunch of people learnt something new...

    --Bill
    #23
  4. Kai Ju

    Kai Ju Long timer

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  5. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    I changed cam shafts once with out taking the flywheel off. I still think it was one of the luckiest days I ever had in either wrenching and/or Love. I'm still batting O in Love so I guess I'm a good wrench. :freaky

    Look for a used cam shaft. The lifters you have are reusable if the bottom faces are not pitted.
    #25
  6. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    The pragmatic answer is to fit a second hand small seal 308 cam, don't get influenced by the guys here that would have you playing around with loctite etc etc........they just want to see if it might work:evil


    If you were to go down that route then by fitting an alternator mounted ignition you would then sidestep the issue of getting the quill placed in the right place for ignition timing, but alternator ignitions are not cheap.

    The photo is of the Khyber pass, well spotted, Iv been loading a shed load of my old photos onto photobucket.
    #26
  7. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    Dang it Chas. We did really want to see if it would work. You know how to ruin a good time, don't you? :lol3
    #27
  8. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    It's a long weekend here and I will dive into this little project in a few hours - should be ample photos by Sunday.

    Kai Ju, your offer is tempting and only a short drive up the I-5! I'll check out the local market first for a used cam, etc.

    Think I'll take this opportunity to re-do the rear seal. Don't worry, Bill - I've been warned about blocking the crank. Sounds like death if you skip this step. Any other booby traps anyone can think of before I start the tear down? If I'm taking off the rockers, might as well at least pull the heads. I'm attempting this all without removing the engine case from the frame. Am I kidding myself?

    Disston, good point about the valve lifters.

    I've got some reading to do re: 308 cams - was this an emissions issue? Performance? Pinging?

    Finally, and on a totally unrelated subject, what should my approach be to unleaded gas? I hear adding a small amount of avgas at each fill up will solve the problem - does anyone actually do that? Or do you recommend a conversion? I'm sure this subject has been covered a million times here and you're all rolling your eyes. . .

    This is going to take a lot of beer.
    #28
  9. Kai Ju

    Kai Ju Long timer

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    that wasn't my cam, merely a link and picture of one on e-bay.
    What's nice about it, besides condition, is that it comes with the lifters, sprocket, chain, guides and oil pump. Everything you need to swap it over.
    Sorry if I gave the impression it was mine. ( I would display it a bit more orderly if it was )
    #29
  10. Kai Ju

    Kai Ju Long timer

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    maybe we can still watch him pull the cam without pulling anything else apart. I would certainly try.
    #30
  11. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Between Loctiting the quill and 'weaseling' out the camshaft, for a while there I actually thought you guys were serious. At least I had an entertaining day.

    Here's a couple of parts that needed liberating -

    [​IMG]

    And the source of my angst -

    [​IMG]

    The weasel hole -

    [​IMG]

    Disston, I think these lifters are gonna be OK -

    [​IMG]

    Right cylinder seems good -

    [​IMG]

    Left cylinder, not so good (pitting from 30 years of neglect) -

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Last mechanic was a little sloppy -

    [​IMG]

    Must have had a valve job three decades ago -

    [​IMG]

    Today's puzzle - why is one of the cylinder studs a funny color?

    [​IMG]

    More laffs tomorrow. . .
    #31
  12. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    The lifters look OK.

    I think some cylinders do get run even that bad but I would not like it. If the pistons are good maybe second hand cylinders would work. Or a set?

    You know that since you are already looking for a cam shaft and 308's seem more available then you could also do 750 or 900 cylinders if a suitable pair could be found.

    It's really easy to do once you start spending bunches of money. :lol3
    #32
  13. JonnyCash

    JonnyCash turd polisher

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    I'd say the one on the right is going bad. I bet that if you run your fingernail across that spot in the middle, you'll find that that it isn't smooth. That's the beginning of the end for that lifter.
    #33
  14. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Disston, I agree the left cylinder is marginal but the obsessive/compulsive part of me would drive me nuts if I didn't address it. I hadn't planned to do an engine rebuild for a couple of years but here I am being sucked into a black hole. Going to a set of bigger cylinders also means the Bing 26mm carbs will have to be replaced - where will it end? Probably better to rebore. . .

    JonnyCash - I did the fingernail test and you're right, slight roughness at the center of the lifter. Now I see what Disston means about pitting. Very subtle.

    Today's task was to remove the crank outer bearing and sprocket. Bearing pops off with little difficulty -

    [​IMG]

    The manual makes it sound like pulling the sprocket is a piece of cake - don't believe it. A little heat helped but it was still reluctant to release. The manual is definitely right, however, about protecting the crank end with pennies -

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This explains why there was a lot of chain slop -

    [​IMG]
    #34
  15. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    I'm going to say what some of you are probably already thinking - this thread is pretty boring. Nothing here that hasn't been covered a hundred times before. I won't report back until I discover something that could be interesting, useful or mildly stimulating.

    Something to note on a slightly different subject - the search engines are getting kind of creepy these days. Within 4 hours of posting my latest installment yesterday, Google interrogated this thread and rendered it discoverable. I confirmed this by searching on rebores for R60/5s and it pointed to this thread.

    Not only are your posts permanent, they are virtually immediate. Of course, Google won't tell you what their SEO algorithms are but you can bet they have a lot to do with traffic and context. Not saying it's a bad thing - just an observation.
    #35
  16. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    I have been loading some photos onto photobucket and thay have appeared on Facebook, I'm sure I did not agree to thAt
    #36
  17. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    There are two aspects to this.

    1...I like the repetition of ideas and writing the needed answers out most of the time. Part of that is helping somebody but I also realized some years ago that I learn and become better by explaining stuff. It's how I learn. It makes for a better understanding if I can explain it.

    2...The machines are coming. They will run the World. Google is aptly named when called a Search Engine. It is a machine and a very important part of the Ultimate Machine, The Brain. If not Google then there will be a Brain that runs all the machines. You can not stop this and I can not stop this. It's Technology and it always wins because our values have only one standard. The standard to the operating of all human endevor is the making of profit. It rules every aspect of our lives. Even something that should be Non-Profit is not. What is that? The Government! The Government is into making a profit. They work only for the rich and the Machines work only for the rich and by the time they realize that they are just another human that the Machines don't need it will be too late.

    Cars are Now being built that can drive themselves. You will own one of these, some of you are already looking for one. It will drive itself on the freeway. In five (5) years a new generation of cars and trucks will be able to do this from point A to point B with out a human.

    With in ten (10) years the machines will be capable of thinking. They will not be stoppable. They already are not stoppable.

    But yes I enjoy my time on the Internet. So please continue to ask and talk about the same things. We sometimes learn something new and along the way we keep some of these older, non-thinking, machines alive.

    I hope I haven't digressed too far but I've enjoyed this thread and hope you keep us up to date.
    #37
  18. Tin Woodman

    Tin Woodman Mike

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    Ah, where else can we find philosophical discussions on government duplicity whilst fixing our beloved airheads? I too must admit to a certain amount of paranoia on occasion. After all, the precursor to the internet was the Arpanet, purportedly used by government to monitor subversive activities amongst university students. We have every reason to suspect its motives.

    I agree to a certain extent with your manifesto - machines will inherit the earth possibly to the exclusion of human beings. Perhaps repairing our motorcycles is our way of convincing ourselves we still have mastery over machines, hence our destinies.

    I find it strangely reassuring when I solve a mechanical puzzle, particularly on my bike - it creates the illusion of control. Especially control over machines once owned by upwardly mobile yuppies of the 70s. The BMW airhead as a metaphor for success is undeniable - it was the bike to own if you were the boss. The proletariat shall inherit the airheads and preserve them for all mankind as an example of superior technical prowess. We are, in effect, museum curators, custodians of relics of a once proud Teutonic past.

    But then again, maybe I'm just messin' with ya. OK, OK, I'll continue to update this thread!
    #38
  19. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    BTW, I understand the pitting of the left cylinder is because the bikes are stored on the side stand and water collects on the low side. Makes sense I guess.

    I do foresee a day when the machines are built to not be worked on. Already young men or boys the age we were when we started working on our cars and bikes have no idea how an internal combustion engine works. The manufacturers don't want us to fix our machines. They want us to buy a new one.

    I'm going to keep mine running as long as I can. The Winter months around here though are not really conducive to riding a motorcycle all year. I could toughen up a little more, I did ride every day in November. But I think there's a limit to how much I can toughen up, ya know?

    EDIT:
    And further more, it was ChasBMW that said to stop it about fixing the cam. I still think it may be possible to fix that cam but Chas says to buy a 308 cam and I think he means an ordinary 750 or 900 cam but I say you should get a 600 cam. You do know that the 600 cam is different that the larger engine cams, don't you? Or if it's really hard to find a 600 cam, it shouldn't that hard really, then consider fixing the loose quill. Yes I think this can be done. You would have to have at least a picture of where the D shape is in relation to the rest of the cam shaft but it does not have to be exact. The points plate screw holes can be elongated to compensate for having the D shape off a little. There is no reason why the points operation has to be in the exact position it is in. It can be adjusted separately.
    #39
  20. Bill Harris

    Bill Harris Confirmed Curmudgeon

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    Whoa. Better watch it-- this New-Age stuff will get up kicked into JoMama... :D

    Look at consumer electronics-- DVD players, televisions, computers etc. From the manufacturing processes used (large scale integrated circuit chips, surface mount components, multi-layer circuit boards) it's not feasible in many cases to repair the product. It can be done IF you want to put the time into it and IF you can get replacement ICs, but in many cases the cost of repair will exceed the cost of new. Not a conspiracy, just the way the the manufacturing process has evolved.

    Anywhays, what were we talking about? Loose /5/6 cam quill. In the old days, as Airhead SimpliFiers we'd be inclined to fix it. But nowadays, we're lazy and it's easier to scour eBay for a decent replacement. And, in the long run, probably more reasonable.

    Rain, rain, rain. Been stuck inside for too too long.

    :D

    --Bill
    #40