Radiator,cooling system? Drum brake question?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Sharps-Nut, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    Hello all I am looking for help on a long over due project. I have owned this 65 mustang since 1990 at time of purchase it had 66,000 miles most of which were put on it from june of 64 till 1970 after 70 it sat more than moved and was sold at public auction in 1990. Early married years did not allow storage of my hard earned toy so it sat at mom and dads. After establishing a home a constant over heating issue plagued the car. After a minor rebuild on the motor in 1999 in an attempt to find a cracked head the over heating continued and I gave up, pissed at the money and time wasted on the rebuild it sat for the next 13 years. During that time my wife and I had a family and my oldest son starts asking questions about the car under the cover.
    So two days ago we uncovered it and fired it up, the 20 year old remaned water pump let go. We replaced it
    and fired it again. Thirteen years ago it would over heat in a short drive or on start up and idle a few minutes. Now with the new pump it ran 10 minutes and all seemed fine temp gauge running right in the middle, no idea of actual temp but when shut off it would heat sink drift up and when restarted would settle back to middle. So what was up with it before? I cant
    test it on the road yet because the brakes are all frozen up, shoe stuck to drum. How do I get past this issue? Peckingon them lightly with a hammer and using a pry bar between the lugs has not helped. Should I put the torch to them and warm them. Should I cut off the shoe retaining pins and try to get the shoes to come off with the drum?
    My local autoparts guy said I was wasting my time replacing the water pump as the over heating was caused by an upside down head gasket or cracked block or head missed during the rebuild. Not sure why the water pump helped or even if it has cured it until I can get it on the road and truly test it. The motor has one hour run time on the 13 year old rebuild so its far from proven but will remain unproven until I get the brakes up and working. Getting this thing back on the road will vindicate my shade tree mechanics skills on the little 260 v-8 ,get my wife off my back, and now with three kids oldest being 13 they have finally seen the car under the cover. It has never moved since they have been on this earth so they were sorta shocked when the cover came off and it ran and made noises. Any suggestions on this project would be appreciated. SN
    #1
  2. MCMXCIVRS

    MCMXCIVRS Long timer

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    Sounds like a gem in the rough you have there.

    The cooling problem was quite possibly just the pump. It was not unheard of for the impellors to slip on the shaft and result in poor coolant circulation and thus overheating. Give it some cautious test driving once you get the brakes sorted and see how it does then.

    As for the brakes; are the wheels free to turn at all? If so, then the shoes would not be stuck to the drums (and should not be anyway as they are not in contact with the drums except when they are actually applied). More likely is that the drums are grooved and catching on the shoes as you try to pull them off. For that, you need to back off the self adjuster to get the shoes clear of the wear ridge. If they truly are seized up and won't turn, then yes, beat/heat the hell out of them until they come apart. The entire brakes are probably toast in that case anyway so a bit of a whooping isn't going to do any more harm. Just be prepared to spring for all new brakes. If originality is not an issue, a disc brake upgrade might be an option then. Otherwise, lots of suppliers for parts for old Mustangs, so getting what you need should not be difficult.
    #2
  3. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    I do a horrible job of describing my issues. Yes the shoes are rusted to the drum don't know why as it has been stored inside. Only one of the four will actually turn. So far pounding has not freed them up. SN
    #3
  4. usgser

    usgser Long timer

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    If your shoes are stuck to the drum look at the backing plate at the bottom for an oil leak. If you've got axle lube leaking past a seal and getting inside the drum. When you apply the brakes the brakes will lock up up "big time". When I've had this issues and to limp it home crawling at slow speed I'd put it in reverse and dump the clutch. It'd free the shoes till I needed to use the brakes again. Then lather, rinse, repeat till home. In my case I ran 5.30 axle gearing so crawling along in 1st gear didn't really need the brakes much till I got home. If all 4 of your brakes are locked up, it's not oil on the shoes, the guy that last did the brakes botched the job. Cheap pig-in-a-poke auction cars are fun eh?
    #4
  5. CycleDoc59

    CycleDoc59 Wrench Rider

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    #5
  6. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    I started this morning pecking on the drum, prying, and finally cut off the pins, and removing the wheel cylinders. They did not go easy but success. Oreilly did not have any parts for a near 50 year old car so now we wait on parts. Here are a couple pics of the progress. Thanks for the MG site a lot of good info there. My drums were turned at the last brake job and are well within spec with no lip so hopefully just a polishing new wheel cylinders and master cylinder. SN


    [​IMG]
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    #6
  7. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

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    Disc brake upgrade?
    #7
  8. qkenf4u

    qkenf4u Been here awhile

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    nice warm bike riding COTTONWOOD ARIZONA...
    good luck with the repairs... a good factory service manual would be very helpful with this car...

    as for the kids he hawing around.. as a kid i would be all about the 65 fastback long before the blue ragtop...:clap
    #8
  9. t6pilot

    t6pilot Been here awhile

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    If its been sitting for ages a complete brake rebuild is in order, new master cylinder, rubber hoses, wheel cylinders and shoes, not that expensive. As previous poster said front discs are a good option. They could be purchased as a option on the GT model
    By the way both of those mustangs are great
    Be careful lifting front that way
    #9
  10. Rampage1967

    Rampage1967 Been here awhile

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    As for the overheating . .have your radiator checked. it may be partly plugged.
    #10
  11. concours

    concours WFO for 41 years

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    +1, also I've seen engine blocks with 4" of sludge in the cooling passages. Freeze plug removal and cleaning was needed.
    #11
  12. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    Thanks for all the words of encouragement. I ordered everything but brake lines and really I am being a cheap ass I better order them. Seems risky to replace un weather checked American made stuff for Chinese made crap. This project has reminded me you cant buy anything that's not . EIS used to make the best wheel cylinders, even had stainless steel pistons vs the pot metal ones one the rest, now out of buisness.
    The comment on the fastback. Its a neat old car but its a mutt of my own making. When I moved to this state to start teaching school 18 years ago I bought it as a basket case, disassembled and partial resto. Knowing I would not know anyone and would need something to keep my evil hands busy I spent three years on and off and did most everything, my brother helped finish the body work on a marathon weekend, then made me shoot the paint. The car was restored in the most dumpy old garage behind a mobile home my wife and I bought to stop paying rent so we could save money for a real home and shop some day in the future. Originally ivy green 289 auto, now ragoon red with wimbleton lemans strips, 289 4 speed. Its been kept on the road where the convertible went to giving cooling issues and after the engine rebuild and even a new radiator I just got busy and left the old car hobby for the last thirteen years. Now with my 13 year old by my side I am enjoying playing shade tree mechanic and unlike work in the past the shade tree has gave way to a decent shop. Weird thing money still does not seem very plentiful?

    When the brakes are done were going to give it a test drive and see if it holds its cool. If it does well then I am the biggest dumb ass in the world for not replacing the pump before. But keeping it off the road has only helped to preserve a really nice low miles convertible, even though it wont lay blackies like the red one.:lol3
    I get to take a group of boy scouts to camp, cot sleeping and no AC for the next week so progress will slow but I will post a follow up if I can still stand after the cot thing. Thanks again for all the kind words and encouragement. SN
    #12
  13. Langanobob

    Langanobob Been here awhile

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    If it were mine I'd get a quality disc brake upgrade. Not sure what it costs but brakes are one of the wrong places to try and save money. Drum brakes are not very good, especially on a 60 year old relatively fast car.

    Plus, doing the brake upgrade will be a very positive learning experience for the kid.

    Bob
    #13
  14. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    I returned from being homeless for a week. Nothing like 6 days and night in a tent remind you there is no place like home. The parts came in at oreilly's while we were gone. We did not go the disc upgrade route as recommended. The car is a an original old car with only 69k and I just hated to mod it. Doubt we will ever show but they are only original once and part of the charm of driving them is wondering what direction they will pull when the brakes are applied. :lol3 We went thru the master cylinder and front bakes and after I backed off and let the kid do the rear. He really appreciated the brake tools, especially the one for the retainer pin springs and retaining spring pliers. I told him I had done many w/o the special tools and cussed a lot more back then. We up grade to silicone brake fluid after a good flush so hopefully wheel cylinders will last a bit longer, they were toast.
    Today after finishing the rear brakes we lowered it for a test drive. It took on three quarts of trans fluid started and ran good for a while then got nasty would not idle good and wanted to die off idle, we made a slight run up the driveway and down the road a couple hundred feet and it croaked. It restarted but something was way wrong. After some time looking it over it appears to be a fuel delivery problem. It will run off gas down the carb but not off the tank. Fuel supply line is clogged, air up it and into the tank did not clear the clog but for a short idle. Comparing fuel supply to it and the fast back seems to have confirmed my thoughts of a clogged in tank screen. Managed to get the 49 year old drain plug out of the tank after much kroil and tapping with hammer. Tank is drained tomorrow we will pull sending unit and strainer assembly and confirm parts needed.
    Good news is it moved under its own power for a short drive, first in 13 years. The boy got the brake job in the rear figured out pretty easy and did good work. Learned not to bend the steel brake line or getting it back into the wheel cylinder straight is a bugger. Overheating issue is still not been road tested but is looking promising. Last thing learned working on these old cars was more fun 10 and 20 years ago but I had less money.:eek1 A lift is going to be a must have, two post or four post not sure but is got to happen. Me no bendy so well. :wink:
    #14
  15. Shepfly

    Shepfly Adventurer

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    I'm now 69 and installed a used Rotary brand 2 post lift about ten years ago. Best auto shop improvement I've made. Look around for a used one, I paid 750 for mine and I bought it from the guy who bought all of a closed Kmart's inventory. Even with a new pump assy after 5 yrs I have only1200 invested. A 2 post lift will give better access to work under the car, and also do wheel work since none are supporting the car. Great learning exp for your boy, he won't need a contractor to change a door knob when grown.
    #15
  16. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    I took the kids out for a maiden voyage. Remember the titanic sunk on its maiden voyage, ours only was slightly better. It ran but started running poorly and croaked within 10 foot of the gas station pump. Knowing it only had a gallon of gas I hoped for no gas. After adding 5 gallons of fresh fuel no run, I had a good assortment of tools with me, not. I had a flat screw driver and it appeared to be fuel related. After bumming a pair of plier off a guy I removed the top of the carb dry. I removed the float, needle and seat. Cranked it and the screen popped out and it was way plugged. Unplugged it reassemble and drive home.:evil It runs great up to 3500 then start to splutter. The original yellow top coil maybe failed, the dwell checked good, carb and fuel seem to be in order so, more time chasing gremlins is in the future. Good news is it held its cool run,drove,and stopped as it should as long as you kept your big foot out of it. Now if I could just find the trunk key maybe I could carry more than a flat screw driver and fire extinguisher with me on future trips. SN
    #16
  17. ericrat

    ericrat Long timer

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    Just saying, check the timing at full advance with a timing light. It might, just might, even be worth checking the timing marks against TDC. It will run well with a bit too much advance, but will overheat.

    Timing is sort of a long shot, but it will cause overheating and is easy to check with an inexpensive tool (timing light).
    #17
  18. GreaseMonkey

    GreaseMonkey Preshrunk & Cottony

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    I'd re-check the screen, it sounds like you could be having a partial blockage.
    #18
  19. Sharps-Nut

    Sharps-Nut Been here awhile

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    I will check the timing out. I have three timing lights of different vintage and dis repair. The last time I used them I thought they all worked now the only one that worked was a orange snap on with adjustable timing. The old car is holding it cool real well so I think were past that. Drivability is getting better, the wife and I went for a spin the other evening and it ran much better. The splutter at high rpm was almost gone. Seems like the more its run the better its running. Maybe like the mechanical adv was froze up and is working loose. I been to busy to play but Monday looks nice and I should have some time to work on it. It needs a good going over as far as timing, points, condenser, plugs, and plug wires checked, cap checked. They were all good or new when parked but time, mice, ect could have had a bad effect. Hopefully find out if the timing is on and both mechanical and vac adv are working will eliminate some possibilities. Its leaking ps fliud at the old eaton style power steering pump, so that's going to have to be addressed as well. One thing fixed two more popping up will likely be the order of the day for a while. It turns 50 years old june 5 of next year and has only come 69k. I know it set from the mid 70's until I bought it 91 and I have only put 3,000 on it since then so its got reasons to be in disrepair. It will be cured and dependable for its 50th birthday. Hopefully its setting days are over for a while. SN
    #19
  20. ragtoplvr

    ragtoplvr Long timer

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    You MUST rebuild the carb, replace the fuel pump and all rubber lines with updated alcohol resistant ones. Trust me the old stuff will not last and will cause problems

    Rod
    #20