Rallye navigation bracket photo thread

Discussion in 'Racing' started by wrk2surf, May 4, 2011.

  1. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    Seth I think the beauty of this design is maintains the integrity of a the holder case and the drive mechanism without adding the weight, complexity and cost to support a new structure that would be side loading and sealed.
  2. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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  3. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    A little further pondering/reflection....and I think the biggest challenge will be an easy to use and reliable method for disconnecting the drive axle from the existing roadbook drive mechanism.
  4. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    What I'm thinking on the complexity side is that if you don't load these puppies right the first time, you're fighting them the rest of the day, a more fool proof loading of the roadbook will pay off greatly.

    This what I think Dimitri is getting at with the design and as far as added cost, look at the way he did that, just about everything in there you already need to make anyway for a holder, the only significant parts that add weight and cost would be the side plates of the cassette.
  5. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    The way I understand the design the spring loaded knobs that stay captive would telescope into the cassette spools and have a drive cog or key to engage the motor. Dimitri?
  6. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    [

    This what I think Dimitri is getting at with the design and as far as added cost, look at the way he did that, just about everything in there you already need to make anyway for a holder, the only significant parts that add weight and cost would be the side plates of the cassette.

    I am not worried about the added cost. I am very aware of what it costs to design, build, and test anything. I am more concerned with limiting the chances for added failure/wear points and minimizing complexity. Both the F2R and MD units are nice as they use rubber bands for drive belts and are nice simple easy to service drive systems.
  7. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    Having actually spent time trying to draw something up, I see this as pretty simple and elegant.

    The drive mechanism looks like an adaptation of the F2R and really doesn't look like it would add any additional failure or wear points into the system. In that sense it would have all the characteristics as far as strength and simplicity of the F2R case and drive and if you double up the O-rings for the drive it would put it in the F2R 750 class. The cassette might provide some failure concerns, but I'd take a shot at making it believing they could be overcome. The benefits I think would be substantial if it could be made to reliably work and honestly I don't see any real issues.

    The way I understand it I'd say great job!
  8. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    I agree. As I said I think the biggest challenge will be finding suitable couplers for the removable drive axles.
  9. Seth S

    Seth S Will _____ for _____

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    Years ago when there was only the MD or the tourtech box I played around we a few design ideas for entirely new holders. I eventually got to a point where I eliminated one of the top guides to simplify loading.

    Note...no ideas for drive at this point but this was the idea then:

    [​IMG]


    My thought at the time was that you could easily wind the scroll on the roller towards the back of the picture...weave the paper over the one guide and then easily access the front roller. As the paper wound out it would gradually approach a parallel with the top cover.

    I even started building a protoype but never finished it. It was small and simple and would only take a small diameter scroll.

    [​IMG]
  10. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    Wow, these are lots of posts to catch up but I will try and answer and discuss all the options here :huh I went to Brodovitch's house and now I have two roll papers from Serres Rally 2011... Almost 700 kilometers and I will check their thickness later on ...

    I will try and find the right suppliers to keep everything good quality and keep it as cheap as possible. Once you find the right people, then it will not cost that much. I am doing this as a hobby so I am not driven by money. I am driven by these discussions which are fruitfull and this brainstroming is what I like the most :freaky. It keeps me moving forward developing new ideas instead of sinking into the old ones... My opinion is that if I go to a store and I pay $600 for the MD, the next thing I will do is call the police to report a robbery :evil so I want to price it as if I was buying it. The F2R is spot on pricewise. The unit we alltogether are developing? Have no idea.at the moment. But as soon as I have a prototype I the price will be the first thing to setup. If I produce 100 units and they cost $1000 each, chances are that by 2o2o I will still have them ... As I said I am a mechanical engineer and I am driven by mechanical things. Not money :deal One thing I want to do, even if I pay the costs for it is to engrave all the nicknames that participated at this development. Lots of people helping develop something novel without arguing.... :1drink


    This is one thing we discussed briefly with Brodovitch. Indeed a racer would not want to carry more things. We carry enough as it is. Even if you have a special box that the cartridge slides in, it will still be bulky. I try to fix as many things on the bike and avoid having things on me. After three days you cant feel your shoulders if you carry a heavy bag :eek1 ... see below for solutions to this matter :wink:


    This is also what I think. The unit will have parts that you can buy from your local store. I know three kinds of people . The ones that will buy it and build it themselves, the ones who want it of the shelf and the ones who will modify it to make it even better .... So I plan to have an open source of spare parts,. You buy them from your local dealer... If you dont bother I will find it and sent it to you :freaky

    What Paul and Seth say is good feedback and we will proceed to that end. Now this I will make tomorrow but it can be done without too much hassle. The idea therefore will be the following. You take the cartridge out. The road book is at its end. Then you take the axle with the paper out. The axle instead of having circlips at its ends will have pin clips. You pull them out and the shaft will be able to slide downwards. It needs some geometry changes but it can be done (if we include the toilet paper idea from the aerospace engineer -read below- then we are in business :lol3) . Afterwards, you slide the new shaft and you put the cartridge the other way round (mirroring parts should not cause any manuf problems)
    As Seth says the alignment of the paper is tricky and I agree with Paul who says that it is a complicated thing to do... (try to align paper in a 15 year old HP plotter now that is a pain in the a$$ :huh . Brodovitch told me that you get used to it, but if I can make it easier then I ask myself ''why not? '' :ear

    As far as reliability is concerned I will choose high quality parts. I will try and find already proven motors from the RC or the robotics industry. The bearings should not cause any problems. The springs are not pushed to their limits so they will survive without problems. Pulleys with rubber bands are reliable enough from other designs so I see it going this way. The other features may add cost (IP factor, LEDs etc) but there is always the option of doing it after you buy it. So you can add things if you dont want to go for the full monty :evil ... For the switch I would ask crankshaft but I am sure he will complicate things with a wireless system that has eye tracing facilities and the roadbook scrolls up and down in the direction that you look :D

    Mechanically speaking the only thing that I would not want to fail is the motor. This not only sucks (pardon my French) but causes distraction and other things to the rider which I would not want. Trying to locate the smallest motor possible at the moment. This is a toughy but I will get there... The motor unit will be removable with quick release electric connections. Unbolt, take out, install the new one. All in all everything will be removable. That is why I want people to assemble it. So they know how to service it. Ok, may be racers want to install the paper, race the SS, install next special stage, race again, etc. But for me, I would prefer to know how things work so if I come across something, I fix it fast, and continue.

    Since everything is assembled by you, you will be able to choose the parts. May be you do not want the large body because you only do local rallies with small roll papers. I dont have the chance to do dakar at the moment so small is ok for me :rofl May be have two bodies? Small and large... F2R has this option at the moment with the new model being larger than the old one...


    What I want to make is a unit that people will care about and not and accessory that you buy and never care. That is why I want people to buy it and assemble it together. I still remember the feeling I had when I assembled my first Radio Control Car (Tamiya Monster Beetle ... aka Hump Backed :D ) .... If you can make your own leds or make other parts of your own, you will be free to buy just the pin clip :D and build the others :freaky. My plan was to make assembly instructions much like the ones you find in the RC cars ....

    That is correct Paul. The knobs have the axle which passes through the pulleys and goes into the paper shafts. No fancy spline, just a key shape to transfer the rotation from the pulleys to the shaft. On my way home I though of another solution which I think it is more elegant and may be easier to manufacture. The mechanism will be positioned on the cartridge. You pull/push/dont know yet :D something (very simple spring loaded design) and you pull upwards the cartridge. i.e. the difference is that the knobs will stay still. Then you put it back in using the other way round moves :evil ... Now I have a friend, mind you he is an aerospace engineer, and when I discussed the matter with him he suggested a mechanism like the one that we have the toilet paper :lol3 This would be fun :D

    In general, there are two options, either make it with complex geometries, inner circlips etc, and make everything expensive as hell since manufacturing will go sky high or make it simple to manufacture hence cheaper for the end user. I like the first, due to my complex nature :evil but I tend to approach it in a more logical way because simpler is always better from my experience ... :deal

    Keep up the brainstorming, very valuable feedback from Paul, Seth and the others :clap
  11. crankshaft

    crankshaft Guns are for pussies

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    HA! My First RC car was a Tamiya Frog:lol3
  12. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    Now lets have a break from the roadbook and go back to the NavTower...

    Today I went and got the parts from the Lasercutting supplier... They are ready to go to the sheet bending facility and then maybe anodising ... :clap

    [​IMG]


    Girlfriend almost had me killed when she saw these parts on the table but anyways... :D

    [​IMG]

    Here you can see the mark lines for the bending machine... I just hope the sheet benders do not mark these things... They are really beautifull. It is 50 series aluminium but it is so smooth, really rare to find here a good supplier...

    [​IMG]

    The pivoting mechanism...


    [​IMG]

    We had some troubles with the text so what was not done will either be an addon stencil or if I anodise the parts it will be engraved (basically remove the anodising so you can see white text on the black anodised part... )

    [​IMG]

    The loT :deal and below are the advmonster light supports. I made some new ones out of SS

    [​IMG]


    And here is the Tamiya I was talking about ... :1drink

    [​IMG]

    I will do a preliminary test on the Navtower even though it is not bended at least I could check if the height is right ...

    gOOdnighT to all of you people,

    -o0-
  13. tileman

    tileman Been here awhile

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    I got hold of a F2R roadbook and designed my own basically copying what they had done. I'd say they are pretty simple really and spare parts for it would be pretty easy to carry. They run with a couple of one way clutches which are easy enough to slip on and off.

    My query is how different are the rolls? Would a roll that was used to the oz safari and then dakar and all the other events be that similar? Or is there in reality a specific standard that is used?

    This thread is brilliant as it has so many people with ideas and the will to design and try stuff :clap:clap:clap
  14. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

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  15. Geek

    Geek oot & aboot

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    Mine was a Tamiya Hornet :rofl

    :freaky
  16. NordieBoy

    NordieBoy Armature speller

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    Tamiya Hornet here...
  17. tileman

    tileman Been here awhile

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    In regards to the drive axles it'd be possible to design in Technic lego wouldn't it? The pulley knobs
    [​IMG]


    can be glued onto the axles eg.

    [​IMG]

    Run the spring as you say and then attach a pulley;

    [​IMG]

    The motor can have to one way clutch pulleys on it therefore providing the drive.

    The cartridge drive axles can intermesh with the lego axles and theres your drive, and to be honest they may be able to be made from lego parts as well.

    Heres a motor that could be used depending on size requirements although rpm would be the limiting factor.

    [​IMG]

    Since one of the ideas was to make it possible to fix nearly anywhere lego is pretty common all over the world. And if people are going to build this most of us would I figure have used lego in the past.

    And some of use may still use it now :wink:
  18. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

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  19. tileman

    tileman Been here awhile

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    Fairnouf. Though through this thread there has been some designs that took a different route, maybe the motor wouldn't work but the drive system may be an idea.

    Also as per the ideas of using hdpe and the like it may be an easy way to design things just for trial, finding alloy/teflon rod etc isn't that easy sometimes.
  20. Brodovitch

    Brodovitch Team ⌘R

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    Following Dimitri's roadbook endeavours closely now, I agree with Seth that I'd rather pack a roadbook packed onto just a roller in my pack instead of a whole loaded cassette

    Regardless, this thread should be awarded a medal :clap

    Oh, and a wee update on my post a few months back regarding the leather Leatherman pouch zip-tied to the fork tube: don't do it :lol3

    After repeated power washings, the leather started to deteriorate and I was lucky enough to see my $120 flapping off the forks in the special of day 3 in Serres ...the zip ties had cut through the leather belt hoop. That said, I do believe that if I can source a nylon/cordura pouch it will be a non-issue