Rallye navigation bracket photo thread

Discussion in 'Racing' started by wrk2surf, May 4, 2011.

  1. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    Just saw the EDIT,
    Nothing impossible here :D
    We have a high speed camera, and the test bike will be up and running soon. I managed to crash also (the things that we do for science... :D ) and the Berg needs some attention.... :D . This particular high speed will not do it, but I have another high speed exilim which with some fiddling around will fit the GoPro mounts.... It will be good to see how the thing behaves in slow motion.

    Another lab test is in order :deal
  2. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    Love the direction you're going in Dimitri and the thoroughness of the tests, but I'm sure you could have told Jaybo going into the test that 10g's was probably enough.

    I think plastic, while being thought of as cheap, is a better choice for survivability and durability as well as replacement cost. A case like yours when thoughtfully designed like your are with those parameters, crush zones, varying wall thicknesses and such will result in a much better and survivable product then any aluminum model out there.

    The new CF KTM towers are very impressive and with a whole factory behind them, spares in the truck as well as team mates bikes to step onto if you demolish yours, KTM can do it, but who else can. With so much riding on each race for them you just know the second a mechanic even suspects the parts have been compromised they will be replaced. If Coma DNF's a race because a part with a known issue fails, heads would roll. At their level you don't just "wing it".

    [​IMG]

    Thanks for the pic Dimitri,

    Would like to know the % of the Dakar riders would come close to having that advantage and depth of spares, let alone one of us that just want to do a roadbook rally, so there should be a large market for something like your MK1 holder that's well engineered and tested.
  3. Happe

    Happe Offroad Nut

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    Maybe I missed it but did you do some tests at around 0 degrees celcius?
    Just thinking of cold mornings in the desert or in the mountains with negative degrees and tired drivers dropping the bike...
    Thermoplast might react a bit different

    Stefan
  4. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    Hi Paul :wave


    I did not even tell him to crash. Such was his dedication that he did it on his own :D It is good that we have some data there and we can have some numbers when designing the towers. A 5kg tower will be approx 50 kg at 10g. Just good to know some values. Data will continue to gather as we draw more riders in so we will build a data base of loads and temperature ranges. The next addition will be a data logger volt meter so that we know the amount of abuse each motor takes. Then we can have a much better approximation of motor life. 600 hrs is plenty but how much rally time is that?
    Having riders all over the place will help add to the knowledge pool here...
    I totally agree. I think when we say plastic and CF or Kevlar and all those names associated with F1, exotic cars and bikes, people will choose CF hands down. Plastics and Thermoplastics have properties that are good enough not only for the everyday user, but for the racers as well. HDPE will move out of the way to protect the Navi equipment and is cheaper and easier to machine than aluminium. You can even drill it on site with a hot screwdriver to make holes and tie wrap it in place. .
    The top guys, have some safety reserves but I think they are not going loco about it. Even if the part runs out of life they replace it... It sure looks sexy as hell though :D We have to understand better what we need. Do we need to replace the equipment as a whole, or parts of it? They can afford to replace not only the tower, but the Nav equipment on top of it. There is an assembly waiting to be put to good use. The whole thing. The lights, the trips, the MD. Everything bolted. You just take of a couple of cables, the two crews on the head, switch the iritrack and good to go. Small teams cannot afford to do it this way. Let alone privateers...


    Stefan! :1drink

    Good point, I thought of it when choosing this particular material...
    This particular thermoplastic is stable from -40deg C up to triple figures. JayBo's minimum temperature in the Australasian Safari was -5 deg C from the loggers, if I remember correctly, and max 35? Somewhere there. The shell is not a problem temperaturewise. The transmission and the motor suffer the most during these changes (usually the start and the reverse cycles when cold stress the motor windings the most) . I went down to -15 in the freezer and up to 60 (leaving it during the day in the sun) to check that the transmisison will cope ok. It did, and the next lab video will be the temp range one.
    HDPE also, has a broader temp range, which is better and imo the way you can modify it almost on site with a swissarm knife makes it really really attractive.... You can literally shape it there :wink: Huge benefit for both privateers and big teams...

    Till later,
    D.
  5. beechum1

    beechum1 Grimace Soup

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    Except for R&D on design, the costs of those parts aren't excessive. They're likely using pre-preg, some variation on epoxy that allows for flex.

    We had a Dow resin with an Air Products Hardener that with only two layers of 7.4oz 2x2 twill was so flexible, even in the contours, that sportbikes could crash (not yardsale) and still run the bodywork with perhaps only a few reinforcement patches, not REPLACEMENT patches.

    I've not worked with CF extensively, but the tensile strength of it, and the strength to weight, is the value. If it's brittle and easily cracks, that's a problem with the resin choice, not fabric. With enough money, maybe like KTMEU, a perfect combo could be found and it would both be rigid and flexible appropriately like plastic, and take up less real estate and be marginably more expensive to produce.

    The price of CF parts is a market price, there's plenty of room in CF retail pricing to produce them "cheaply". And even with the Δ in materials cost over the last few years, there's still room. Their (KTM) design, only seeing the cosmetic side would be pretty easy to reproduce. Someone mentioned some honeycomb recently, perhaps a 1/16" hexcell and 2x6oz on each side, I'd use my old epoxy resin combo for flexibility. The hexcel has little flex modulus and the design could be honeycomb only at certain points, maybe around the edges and in flat spots. Another option is to make some backing straps like on the underside of a car hood.

    There's inexpensive ways to make something like that work, work well, and not have failures. But it's in the R&D dept that those options become evident.
  6. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    Sorry Jeremy I have to disagree, did you forget tooling again?

    The tooling costs alone would prohibit most from even thinking of making a precision CF part, let alone 5-10 for an assembly like that and all the other R&D aspects.

    The R&D software and engineers for designing the parts for strength and flex in a predictable manner, fabricators to then to lay it up correctly on the tooling made in the CNC department then bolt it up see how it reacts, then start over with what you learned, repeat 2-3 times, all of that aside, you can now see pictures on the internet and copy it, but you won't know what you're doing or why. Especially with the variables in a structural CF part.

    I'm sure this represents months of work on KTM's part, then to get to the stage of bolting one up for a race on Coma's bike, way different level of magnitude. That's why guys don't make Formula 1 cars in their garage.

    I appreciate it when we see Dimitri go through this process of R&D and destructive testing that the factories do, but we are not privy to. It's a lot of work!
  7. beechum1

    beechum1 Grimace Soup

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    To be clear, not arguing per se, just my opinion....

    I did forget about CNC tooling, but from a low tech point of view, cost of fiberglass molds are inexpensive also. Of course, that's after hand sanding bondo and making a plug out of cardboard or wood. Labor would be the most part of COGS but for a personal part it could be argued it's "free."

    R&D process is certainly appreciated. I didn't mean to insinuate that I would copy it. I've no need for that design. I wouldn't use a heavy light like that, and the fairing design is completely different, etc. It was an observation, not a goal.

    Like you say, R&D and destructive engineering are critical to all processes. Having designed my own setup on my XR I get that. I was fortunate to have only gone through 2 revs before my tower was acceptable. If I wasn't leaning towards selling the bike, I'd definately make a third which would be wiring changes and likely the headlight setup would have to change.

    Most of the load factors and structural design can be done on paper, especially for what amounts to about 10lbs with (layman) G's of about what... 5-8 of typically "rolling stresses" and a crash of what, 10-20G's? So 10lbs becomes 200lbs. Engineer in a safety factor of at least 1.5 and do some testing if needed before construction.

    Carbon behaves predictably in a minimal waste matrix, bagged or infusion, and even better, pre-preg. So it wouldn't be difficult to sketch out the designs to affect the strengths necessary. Some uni-tow equal spaced in 22.5 deg radii from mounting points and put in some contours for stress and strength points.

    The most difficult part, I think, would be the lateral (z to bike position) forces to account for and not interfere with vertical and horizontal (x & y to bike) flex.

    Again, not arguing... just talking out loud you know..... My experiences and opinions...... I can always be wrong.....

  8. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    Sorry Jeremy, I knew that's what you were saying, so I had to give you grief. Some of us could make a workable CF tower by the seat of our pants, doubt it would look or function anywhere near as well.

    But when it comes to KTM Factory Racing you can bet that's not how they did it. Every surface and every thickness will have a purpose. I just question what it would look like and how functional it would be after a solid hit. My take away is that the plan is not to take a solid hit.

    I still need more convincing that a CF tower is the way to go.
  9. LocuL

    LocuL Gnarly Infantry

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    Regarding the drop test.

    Isn´t the thermoplastic simpel lexan?

    The test conducted on the CF part, did i see some fiberglass stick out? thought it was complete 2-3mm CF/kevlar? The CF would of course get cracks but the kevlar would bring in the flexability!
  10. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    Is it? Will not publish material properties... just yet.... :1drink The properties are not final anyways...

    There was no fiberglass in the part. Only pure CF and CF/Kevlar weave. The CF/Kevlar sheet is too weak. You can actually penetrate it with a hand and a hammer.... And I have the part to show it :D

    As far as composites is concerned, I am with Paul. I think factory bikes will get more and more high tech. Question remains.... 40% lighter. That is what KTM said for their new tower. Ok, they shaved 600 grams. So what? 600 grams. That is how much a couple of spanners weigh.... I don't think they did it for weight.
    Don't get me wrong, I love composites as much as the next guy. Fairings? Yes. bash plates? ... well... Yes and No (Have you seen the Kawa with the HDPE bash plate? ). Fibers, in general do break upon impact. It is that property that we use to make helmets, monocoques etc. IN this particular area (Navi quipment and tower), you want the parts to absorb the energy (1) and (2) either divert is somewhere or (3) deflect and spring back. Can CF parts do that? Of course. Can plastics do that. For sure. Which one is easier to manufacture and costs less to prototype? Plastics hands down. And do not be fooled. When people hear plastics think of water bottles and pens... There are thermoplastics out there which are used in bulletproof windows.

    And will tell you something from my HDPE experience. Do you know that with a butane lighter and an HDPE rod you can actually weld the thing in the side of the road? You can literally weld the thing back and continue the race.... i used to repair HDPE pipes on site and I was surprised on how HDPE behaves....

    It is just that I am not convinced that the CF will behave nicely in a crash. Plus, the thin parts left after a hit are not very good for our health and I hate wearing masks all the time :D


    For example... Mounting brackets....

    Now you see it ....

    Attached Files:

  11. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    Now you dont.... :D

    Attached Files:

  12. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon -oo-

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    And.... now you see it again :huh

    Test was conducted outside of the lab... Shoes: Asics, size 44 :evil. Male Caucasian, height approx. 1.95 Weight approx 90 kg. (not me :wink:, I was holding the camera :evil )
    We got some pretty weird looks at the time but the high speed cameras work better with natural light. ...

    Attached Files:

  13. Bill the Bong

    Bill the Bong Supern00ba

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    Very interesting developments.
  14. Gimme 2

    Gimme 2 wheels , with nobs

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    I think this is a great piont Jaybo, the vibration factor is a pain when trying to read the map, i would love to have a better system here. it will make speed and safety.
  15. TobyG

    TobyG be happy :)

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  16. ArthDuro

    ArthDuro quarantined

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    haha and a video to go with it

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UaOPGzevhdk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  17. ROKIT_71

    ROKIT_71 Gone Orange

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  18. Yellow Pig

    Yellow Pig Allergic to Asphalt!

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    So I've been having issues w/ my ICO lately. It would blink and then lock up requiring me to dismount it from the nav tower and remove the batteries in order to re-set it, loosing my mileage up to that point. Not optimal during a nav ride.

    I sent it in to ICO for warranty repairs ad here is the reply I got:

    We have received your Dual Sport repair, and this is your repair estimate.

    The issue that you have seen with your instrument is related to a small software bug in the instrument's programming. At this time we do not have a patch to update your instrument in order to fix the problem, but I do have some measures that you can take to lower the chances of your instrument freezing or resetting.

    1) From our experience, the lock up issue happens when manually counting down a large amount of the mileage on the odometer (more than 8 miles on hundredths display). To lessen the chances of the instrument resetting, only decrement mileage in bursts smaller than 5 miles total when using the hundredths display mode (xx.xx on the LCD). After each burst, wait a couple seconds for the computer to finish its processes before beginning another burst.

    2) Change the instrument to tenths display mode (xxx.x on the LCD) before decrementing large distances. Because the instrument has difficulty keeping track of steady decrementing over a number of digits, not miles, you can safely decrement 10 times as many miles when running xxx.x than you can on xx.xx; but remember to not decrement over 50 miles on xxx.x

    3) If you need to decrement a large number of miles, consider resetting your instrument's odometer and incrementing from zero to reach the desired number, rather than decrementing from your current mileage. In our experience, the software bug does not show up when incrementing any distance, meaning this is a safer bet for large odometer mileage changes.

    4) If you are still having issues with your instrument resetting, you may want to consider taking out the internal batteries and running solely on the bike's 12v power. This will make resetting your instrument much quicker and easier.

    Other than the resetting issue that I described above, I was not able to find any issues with your instrument. We apologize for your inconvenience, and will ship your instrument back to you at our expense since we cannot fix the issue at present. If you are still having issues with your instrument after trying the above suggestions, or if your instrument locks up frequently when not decrementing the odometer, please contact us via this email address and we will work with you to get the problem resolved for you. We will ship your instrument out of our facility today, ground shipping should have the instrument back to you by the end of the week. You will not be charged for diagnostics or return shipping on this repair.

    Thank You
    Ben Horarik
    ICO Racing
    Repair Department


    Not the response I was looking for. Specially when I was not dialing the ICO back when the issue occurred.
  19. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I had the issue on my Rallye VR Light several years ago. At that time, then didn't even reply to my request for a fix. I used Option #4 to work around the issue. But since they don't stand behind their product, I now buy Tony's superior unit instead:
    http://rallymanagementservices.com/collections/new-products/products/tripmaster-xl
    http://www.rallyenavigationsolutions.com/english/products/tripmaster-xl/#cc-m-product-7183543793

    The reason they can't fix an existing unit is because it's a firmware bug. The firmware is burned into the processor chip inside the unit. There are no provisions to update that firmware, so the only fix is to replace the unit.
  20. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    Have you contacted your dealer? I don't sell the Dual Sport models, but as a dealer I have been very successful at working with ICO to repair or replace defective units for my customers.

    Also, looking at the quote, they left the door open for replacement. I think you just have to ask one more time. Not my style of customer service, but pretty common these days.

    Dave