Rear Brake Usage during Braking

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by ParaMud, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. GoGoGavin41

    GoGoGavin41 Isn't this that guy?

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    848
    Location:
    "America's Finest City" ...wait, what?
    I'm 99% sure they use linked brakes.
    #41
  2. hajime

    hajime Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    200
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    I dropped my the bike while I was using a loaner for my beginner MSF course, because my hubby told me not to use the rear brake... I was kind of mad at him. Illogical, but sometimes us women folk are that way. After passing the course, I found some empty dry pavement and practiced braking a lot. I was terrified, but determined. I taught myself to use the right amount of front/rear depending on conditions. I also tried a dirt bike which gave me a feel for a sliding rear tire. I locked up the rear brake about a year ago, didn't go down...That was a nice wake-up call.

    After, four years of riding and learning everything I can, I'm feeling a bit more confident. My final opinion, because this was a problem for me. Teach her to use both brakes. Explain how the physics actually works. She is probably really smart and can get this.. I know it's scary to let her try. I figure my hubby is a great rider but a bad bad wife teacher.
    #42
  3. Onward

    Onward Title Here

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Oddometer:
    34
    Location:
    Hudson Valley, NY
    Anyone I am "teaching" to ride, I've told straight up, I can get you going on a motorcycle, and you need structured motorcycle education to ride properly. I tend to get nominated to teach how to ride a lot of the people I know by virtue of I've been riding longer, and have more miles than most other people I know. I also know I am not qualified to tell people what they are doing right wrong or indifferent. For all I know I do plenty of things wrong (actually I am sure I do). With that said I use both brakes, on any bike any time. My sport bike stands right up on the front wheel with enough vigor on the lever (the rear locking up is unnoticeable when off the ground). I also ride year round so long as there is no snow or ice on the road, and regularly will do brake checks with the front or rear to get an idea current road conditions. Never been in a situation to know if it will help me or not, so I pretend that it will help.
    #43
  4. SocalRob

    SocalRob Long timer

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Oddometer:
    14,813
    Location:
    Los Angeles @ base of Angeles Crest Hwy
    I agree with Pantah as long as we are talking about a modern sporty bike. The rear wheel accounts for such a small amount of the stopping traction IF you are properly applying the front brake, that there is a good argument for putting 100 percent of your concentration into getting the maximum front brake usage. In a good panic stop the rear tire should be either off the pavement or only have a few lbs load, and that should be with your butt slid back. Unless you have ABS, if you are not getting the rear wheel off the ground and/or getting the front wheel marginally locked up, you are not getting all you can out of the front.

    This thread is a good argument for linked ABS brakes. One great thing about having ABS brakes is it makes high speed full on brake practice safer. For the first several years I owned my GSA with ABS I would practice panic stops at 75mph until the ABS kicked in every day. Don't understand how people talk about never locking up their brakes. Seems like you should be locking your brakes or having your ABS kick in during practice on a regular basis.
    #44
  5. SocalRob

    SocalRob Long timer

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Oddometer:
    14,813
    Location:
    Los Angeles @ base of Angeles Crest Hwy
    I seriously doubt Moto GP bikes use linked brakes. I would be somewhat surprised if they use ABS.
    #45
  6. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    631
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    May I ask how you dropped your bike because you didn't use the rear brake?


    Motogp does not use linked brakes.
    #46
  7. PeterW

    PeterW Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,804
    Location:
    Gold Coast
    Looks around, finds the asbestos suit and puts it on.


    Get her a bike with ABS - then it doesn't matter if she locks the rear, she can just stomp on the damned thing and not worry about whether it locks up after that or not.

    We already know she's not some God like rider who can stop the bike by biting the front wheel with her teeth - what the OP is worried about is her being able to stop quickly without dropping the bike - and I'm sorry, but that's what ABS will buy for an inexperienced rider.

    Pete
    #47
  8. Vulfy

    Vulfy Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Oddometer:
    574
    Location:
    NYC

    Well hold on... bringing Moto GP on slicks with professional riders on board, into this argument about a beginner learning to brake on a highway, is about as relevant as comparing horse apples to porcupines....


    I would think its about a more gradual load on the tire and not locking the front. Relying solely on the front to take all the braking load, especially in a panic stop, is asking for a lockup of the front wheel. Add a curve in the road, and without proper practice, its much easier to wash out the front.

    With rear, you can preload the bike, then transfer to the front, and ease up on the rear as needed.

    And yes, unless you are stoppie-ing every time you come to a stop, your rear tire is still contacting the pavement and is still responsible for bike's braking. Braking with the engine by downshifting does not give you anything that a rear brake wouldn't give you, with a lot cheaper maintenance costs in a long run.
    #48
  9. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    631
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    I didn't put that in until someone else posted up a gp bike saying that it had a rear brake.

    As for slicks, the difference of grip is proportional. Sure you have less front tire grip, but you have the same amount of grip difference in the rear so you can compare them.


    Teaching the beginner the same concept as a professional racer seems fine to me. It allows them to slow down as fast as possible.
    Racers don't slam on the brakes, they gradually load the front just like a normal street bike.
    As for preloading the front, this is done just by rolling off the throttle before apply the brakes. (how I personally do it, but rear brakes is perfect also).
    #49
  10. HooliKen

    HooliKen Awesome is a flavor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,031
    Location:
    Smithfield, VA
    And I only use 1 toe when I use my rear brake.............:norton
    #50
  11. AustinJake

    AustinJake TE450-KLE-FXDWG

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,898
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Spot on, agree 100%
    #51
  12. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    12,388
    Location:
    Helltown
    You asked for opinions then you try and sway us towards your line of thinking.
    The rear brakes there for a reason. Use it! Why do you think its easier to not lock the front brake verses the rear brake in an emergency?
    Learn to use both, then every ride, find a deserted stretch of road and progressively use more and more pressure on the grip/pedal until she eventually learns where the brakes lockup(threshold braking).
    Then, each ride, practice that threshold braking. Learn it BEFORE you need it.

    Nothing illogical about being mad at getting bad information that can hurt you or worse.

    I think swapping out bikes to give her a crutch is
    1: Expensive
    2: Unrealistic

    He's not worried about her locking up the rear because shes not using it as per his instructions.
    What if after a year or two she want's a non ABS bike. She will either have a painful learning experience or will revert back to "front brake only" mode.
    Every beginner goes thru the same learning process and there are thousands of happy beginners on non-ABS bikes...without issues.

    Disclaimer: Yeah, you can stop only using the front brake. You can stop only using the back brake. But in an "emergency situation" you need both to stop in the shortest amount of space.
    Hell, I sometimes only use one brake but most of the time I use both. Advanced riding techniques are for advanced riders, not beginners.
    #52
  13. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    12,388
    Location:
    Helltown
    It's not bullshit. Maybe the exact percentage is but in a controlled environment the front brake will generate a LOT more stopping power than the rear. How would you explain the front verses rear brake stopping force to a beginner?
    #53
  14. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,604
    Location:
    Germany
    Still it's much easier and MUCH safer to practice proper braking on an ABS bike.
    #54
  15. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    19,747
    Location:
    OR

    Who made up that stupid rule? :lol3
    #55
  16. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    12,388
    Location:
    Helltown
    Not when you don't own one. :D
    #56
  17. FFLTR

    FFLTR nandesuka

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    141
    Location:
    Albuq, NM
    That is funny you ask for opinions then argue with anyone with a different view than yours.

    If you're worried about her locking the back brake by just stomping on it what makes you think she will be any different with the front? You don't think she will just grab the hell out of the front and go down when it locks and washes out?

    Personally I think it's easier to recover from a rear brake slide than a front one, even for a beginner. All they have to do is keep stomping on that pedal.

    What scenarios do you anticipate her making a hard stop? (I don't think she is doing stoppies, so the rear wheel coming up shouldn't be factored in. I would think she locks the front wheel before it comes up)
    Straight dry road - using both brakes and locking up the back should be no problem
    In a turn - grabbing the front usually makes you go down, stomping on the back makes you fly then hit the ground, using some of both works
    Slick road - grabbing the front not good, stomping on the back not good but probably not as bad, using both good

    Also, I guess a lot of this depends on what kind of bike she rides.

    Practice using both would be the best as others have said.
    #57
  18. HooliKen

    HooliKen Awesome is a flavor

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,031
    Location:
    Smithfield, VA
    And comparing your n00b riding girlfriend to Rossi is just ridiculous!

    That is like trying to teach a new offroad rider to get though a tough section by showing them videos of Knighter doing it in a race. :huh
    #58
  19. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    631
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    Of course I am going to defend my position.

    Well there is very little weight on the rear wheel during heavy braking, making it very, very easy to lock up. Simple physics on why the front brake is much harder to lock up during heavy braking.

    She uses the front brake correctly, smooth on, smooth off and stay relaxed on the bike. That is the only advice I have given her. She has done MSF and done some local independent instruction.
    #59
  20. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    631
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    How is it not comparable. They develop bikes from motogp and put them on the street. His goal is to stop as fast as possible. That is her goal also.
    #60