Reasons not to exceed your sight limits in turns

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by foxtrapper, May 7, 2013.

  1. foxtrapper

    foxtrapper Long timer

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    Setting up for the next corner is relevant only when the next corner is known, and it's within the window of effect.
    #21
  2. scottrnelson

    scottrnelson Team Orange

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    It seems that you are going to stick to your opinion no matter what.

    I watched a guy crash in front of me once when he entered an unknown S-turn that was tighter on the second (left) corner than on the first (right). He entered the corner planning to do it your way: "start wide, go tight, end wide" and ended up starting the next corner tight. He still could have made it, since he had plenty of track experience, including dragging knees, on that same bike. But because he had such an awkward line, he went off in the dirt on the right. I think he still could have ridden it out, but had no dirt experience, so as soon as he touched his front brake, down he went. The only injury was a broken clutch lever and a dirty bike. He rode it out of there after swapping the front brake lever over to the clutch side.

    If that guy had entered this unknown corner planning to be on the inside at the end of the corner, he would have been in the perfect position to make the next one and I'm certain that he wouldn't have ended up off in the dirt.

    The method I'm talking about is more important if the corner is UNKNOWN.

    You ought to try it for a while before dismissing it as being wrong.
    #22
  3. foxtrapper

    foxtrapper Long timer

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    Ah, sorry, didn't properly recognize you for the troll you are. :lol3

    Undoubtably, having read a book you are a true master of all.
    #23
  4. scottrnelson

    scottrnelson Team Orange

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    Having read many books (I only mentioned the best one) and practiced it for nearly a decade after several more decades of trying it the other way.

    I can see that this discussion will not make any further progress, at least between you and me, so let's agree to let it rest, okay?
    #24
  5. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Until the next corner is known, you shouldn't be picking an apex or exit for the corner you're in. :dunno
    #25
  6. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Long timer

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    :thumb
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  7. RRVT

    RRVT Wild and Crazy Guy

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    If my memory servers me right, in that same book he talks about this 12 second rule - something like If you cannot see 12 seconds ahead of you, its time to slow down. The reasoning is that 12 seconds gives you enough time to stop at high speeds, anything less and you may not have enough time.

    I've been going by that rule for the last few years and it worked well for me. I always had enough time to break when something unexpected appeared around a corner. I've encountered gravel/mud washed up on the road by a thunderstorm, a turning truck, fallen tree, a kid crossing on a bicycle. I always had plenty of time to react and stop.
    #27
  8. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    I love the unexpected surpises. They get the blood flowing and make for a more fun and engaging ride. :nod
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  9. filmfan

    filmfan Long timer

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    What about the expected surprises, those too?:wink:
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  10. DavidBanner

    DavidBanner Banned

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    part of the problem is that "proper" cornering technique FOR RACING has [unfortunately] become synonymous in the motorcycle marketplace with cornering technique in all situations. i.e. "if you're a good rider, you can get your knee down" and "you coulda gone faster through that corner, look at those chicken strips" and "just have to lean more."

    the racing technique/line/whatever has a goal of pure speed. street strategies have entirely different concerns. those of you who say "i wouldn't ride faster than the space i can see" aren't going as fast as you can...and that's because you understand that it's better to trade speed for safety out on the road.

    on the track, you essentially trade ALL of your safety for the extra speed and hope that the corner workers aren't falling asleep and that your fellow racers aren't crashing in front of you. that makes me a little uncomfortable as a proposition.

    once i came to terms with the fact that many of those classes/books teaching "proper cornering technique" were primarily concerned with "speed speed speed"...it became easier to take it easy and i didn't feel like i was missing out. street riding is ALL (and ONLY) about making it home in one piece. i'll still hang it out, but only in places i have scouted and sighted first...like roundabouts :-)
    #30
  11. DavidBanner

    DavidBanner Banned

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    early apexing is a rookie mistake borne of the safety instinct to hug the inside of a turn (since they're not comfy really leaning the bike...keep it upright and inside leaving the whole lane for mistake-making).

    the problem is that it COMPOUNDS the rider's problems.

    It crushes sightlines (shortening the viewable distance ahead).

    Turns that one turn into TWO separate turns...you're too tight too soon, have to steer out of the turn so you don't hit the midpoint, then have to RE-steer into it to keep from running wide...using a ton of excess lean angle to make the bike complete the turn.

    All of this is cured by late apexing.

    If there's an unexpected decreasing radius, you still haven't committed and have waited until you SEE the true apex before committing and steering in toward it.:clap if you're carrying speed, you'll still have to figure out what to do about it, but at least you haven't killed your sightline (panic inducing) and made it into more work (two turns) than it really is.

    If it is constant radius...you may NEVER apex because you'll be waiting, waiting, waiting and it never comes (still a good outcome). you've kept the bike upright with more traction available the whole time.:clap
    #31
  12. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    Are you talking about "trail Braking" or "braking" to the Apex.

    In Trail Braking you are slowing coming off the brakes while already increasing speed with the throttle. (Helps to control suspension movement among other things) I understand that you do not want to brake to the Apex, then get on the throttle, you are right in that if you are all the way to the apex before you are getting on the throttle you came in way to hot. Proper entry speed is the speed that allows you to maintain or increase speed all the way through the turn.
    #32
  13. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

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    First part VERY True, and the second is also true but only if your line and speed allows you to turn the two back to back turns into one turn otherwise you end up with two apex's. At Pocono East there was two similar left corners back to back that with the SV I had enough speed and a good entry that allowed me more speed and to turn them into one turn. It allowed me to carry more speed, and pass slower riders before coming into the tight right hander (The Bus Stop as it's called)
    #33
  14. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen

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    I too agree that late-apex is a very good method for single turns with good sightlines to the exit of the turn and beyond.

    Scanning, searching, sightlines are all VITAL to effective cornering, and those must all be used before ever getting to the turn entry.

    Also, like said earlier, in multiple turns (twisties) you also HAVE to plan your apex based on where you want to enter the NEXT turn. Use your vision and sightlines to ride "one turn ahead" of the turn you are just entering. If you don't apply this method, you WILL at some time arrive at the next turn at the wrong position and speed. PUCKER TIME!

    That means in some cases, your best apex may be even later than normal. Or your speed must be lower to allow for the apex you chose or to adjust your speed before the turn to compensate for what your sightline DOESN'T tell you about the next turn until you get to it. Applying these techniques help to avoid going in too hot at which point your choices are much more limited.
    #34
  15. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    We have a section of road that's lots of fun with both sweepers and some tighter turns. However, there's one that has two apexes close together, and the second one hides behind trees and is tighter than the first. If you aren't aware of this, you'll come out of the first one too hot and won't make the second one. Went by on Sunday and found a Harley in the ditch. The guy who lives nearby said he sees 5 or 6 of those every summer.
    #35