Retro Street Tracker ...with a 710cc DR Thumper..

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by Apocalipsis FZR, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    2014/MAY UPDATE.
    Done it!

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    As always..my apologies are given to anybody that considers to be offended by my poor spelling and limited vocabulary. Im afraid that english is not my preffered lenguaje to write in.
    Also I am really sorry about some of the quality of the pics...Im not a photographer, neither....

    Ok.
    This is one of the most strange build ups I ever made....not because my previous monsters were basically Street Fighters, but mainly due to the fact that it started with a piece of crap frame I founded at the back of my shelter and with fuel tank that I founded in the local ebay for 5 $...
    So the story begings with this:
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    The tank ..I think is from an old Suzy...may be a GS250 from the 80s.
    The frame is from the almighty DR650 Dakar or Djebel (1990).
    In order to take this pic I had to chopp the fuel tank´s front fixing points...otherwise the tank wasnt laying prpperly on the frame...

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    After a intensive thoughts I decided to move forward....but I wasnt sure about my main objective...
    So I took the decision to see or imagine which concept I wanted, I assemblied the ¨mock up¨or an empty engine I use to check clkearances in my DRs, also installed a swingarm and a R6 rear shock I have from my super Sport times...
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    I also check the web for inspiration, and this were the bikes that suit almost everything I want from a tracker:

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    So the ojective was:
    • Build a Street tracker with Retro inspiration (even when this means going back in time about frame /suspension design - Engineering INvolution??).
    • Build it with what I already have in my garage (even when this mean wasting more time creating something I can find already done - Tight budget).
    • Use the available money in trying new Engine Ideas I have for the DR 650 engine (I have one DR650 RSE from 1995 with a 670cc Wiseo kit -the one w/ Faring , the european model- as dailly conmuter, and one DR650 R kick starter Highly modified for Adventure Rides in South America).
    So...lets start with basics.
    Defining if I go with a flat subframe, or I leave the soft curve of the orinial DR frame...I´ll leave it, but it must chopped until a new subframe lenght is defined, and I must take a decision if I leave the frame chopped or I close it in a curve...the last one will be ...like an old Triumph ..
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    Wheels .... In front a 19" , ok,
    I found a new rim 2.15x19 , new spokes, done it...
    Rear??? I dont know yet...

    By general standads, it must be a thin 19 or 18"...but this is something I will decide with a propper roller chassis and working suspensions...for now I will leave the standard 17 x 2.5 from the DR650...

    Until now...looking promissing...

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    #1
  2. BigPigDaddy

    BigPigDaddy ADV Dreamin'

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Oddometer:
    20
    Location:
    Orygun
    I really like the lines of it already. ¡Muy Bueno! :nod
    #2
  3. plugeye

    plugeye mc caregiver

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Oddometer:
    4,079
    Location:
    Garland, Texas
    looks properly proportioned imo.
    #3
  4. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    Ok... Retro style on going....or Engineering INvolution started...

    Started to cut some things and these are the leftovers..

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    :huh:huh:huh:huh:huh:huh


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    12 cm shorter swing arm (I need this thing to be able to slide), dual shocks... In the pictures checking clearances with the ¨DR 650 Jurassic Rally¨´s rear wheel (a 18 x 2.5 with Knobbies).
    Over there is the muffler she is going to use...an old style megaphone .


    Started to build the exhaust....
    Im afraid that my hydraulic bender can´t do a good job with this kind of pipes...and Im also using a bigger pipe...so Im using the Oil & Gas curve system...mitred bends....its time consuming but I peffer to do it myself.


    The shocks I was trynig were from a Chinesse 250cc...but believe it or not...there were really hard...so I had to change them to a 125cc donnor...also Chinesse...


    My former engine builder (from my super sport time) gave me an old front mudguard.... donnor bike unknown (by the style, quality of the chrome and general dimensions...I elieve is from a 80´s street bike)...its going to be at the rear...

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    Made a couple of steel plates and welded to the frame, so the shocks can be mounted directly to the frame...

    Still looking good.....


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    #4
  5. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    Ok some up dates for you...
    • Still checking geometry with a 18¨rear wheel,
    • Exhaust completed, painted and asbestos taped.
    • Final location of the rear mudguard.
    • Final location of fuel tank (rear support made and welded.
    • Front light installed (from a HONDA CG 125 Chinnese copy, the cheapest one I could find).
    • Seat´s structure completed (a steel back bone with front and rear/lateral supports) ready for cushion fabrics.
    • Handlebar Risers (25mm) Lathe manufactured, in place.


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    On the fuel tank aspect...I really dont know what to do with it...
    It has some minor dents (which can be roughly reapired and then epoxy and paint) but there is a pinhole due to Pitting .
    Its becoming really hard finding someone that makes an old school repair (welder and Sn/Pb added), and the epoxy resin is a repair I can do my self...

    Any suggestion??

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    #5
  6. bk brkr baker

    bk brkr baker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Oddometer:
    6,075
    Location:
    The Bluegrass
    Use silver solder from a welding supply house to fill the pinhole.
    #6
  7. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    Good Idea BAKER.
    I'll find the local supplier of that stuff...
    I even watched a Video in Youtube about it... seems easy...


    OK.
    the engine is almost done.
    Amost because of the 3 available Cilinders top head , not even one is in an acceptable status...
    I cant find a suitablke replacement locally (and in US ebay there is nothing in good price).

    I'll be going to a local machine shop to make some old school repairs on one of the HEADs...

    like this (look at the inserted sleves):
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    But I really want to try another solution...instead of using sleves, I want to use actual Roller Bearings.....
    Like KTM's Heads...

    ANY DISADVANTAGE??
    Have anybody try this before?? I mean, replacing the OEM Sleve system of a CAMSHAFT to a Roller BEARING system???

    So, until now, regarding the engine,:

    • gears revised.
    • ALL Engine bearings replaced.
    • Oils seals replaced.
    • Oil pump checked.
    • NEw clutch discs installed
    • New Heat Resistant Paint.
    • Sand blasted Engine covers
    • 710 cc " KIT " Installed.
    On the 710cc KIT...I have to tell that is another of my "wanna Try" things...

    PRE 1996 DR 650 has a Bore of 95.0 mm , which linked to a stroke of 90.4 mm , it results in a 640cc displacement.
    POST 1996 DR650 SE has a Bore of 100.0 mm , which linked to a stroke of 82 mm , it results in a 644cc displacement.

    NOW, my Idea was..." What about taking a PRE 1996 DR 650's engine and installing a POST 1996 DR650 SE's Piston????
    You will end up with a BORE of 100mm and a stroke of 90.4 mm....that will give you a 710 cc engine...."

    Sounded extremly stupid ....SO I DID IT!!!!

    Bought a JE Piston kit of standard diameter for the DR650SE ( although is lighter that the Suzuky OEM unit, its the same dimension and compression ratio) , Took the Cylinder to a machine shop, removed the Sleve, machined the Cylinder, installed another larger Sleve, machined the new sleve to the desired diameter...and thats it... a 710 cc Thumper based on a DR650 engine....
    #7
  8. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Oddometer:
    2,210
    Location:
    Midwest, West Oz
    Rollers for the cam might be more expensive to fit than a new motor.
    What about measuring the cam journals on the head, finding a set of conrod bearings that come close, then line-boring the head to fit it all together? Conrod bearings are easy enough to lathe down a bit to make it all fit, just need to find something close.
    Either that or weld/fill/machine/line-bore.
    #8
  9. Pablo83

    Pablo83 Sleep, Wrench, Ride

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,837
    Location:
    Woodland Park, CO
    I did this recently on a damaged Arctic Cat H1 head. On the H1 the inner-most journal was destroyed. Luckily, it was a smaller diameter than the other journals, which made it easy to enlarge and add roller bearings to the new cam. This was about half the cost of a new head.

    Things to worry about:

    oil pressure - roller bearings don't hold oil pressure like a journal will. If you are going to install roller bearings on a journal that has an oil hole (like the center on in your pic) you will want to weld the oil hole shut and drill an appropriately small-sized hole (or otherwise restrict oil flow) to keep the proper oil pressure throughout the rest of the oiling system.

    Bores - typically heads are machined as a matched pair, which means you bolt the cover to the head and then bore out the journals. So if all of your journals are the same dia and you want to bore in inner-most journal, you will also have to bore the middle and outer ones too.

    other notes:
    Roller bearings don't need as much oil as journals do.
    #9
  10. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    Excelent.

    Also Thank you for you suggestion MODNROD, look at the pictures,
    it was included in the solution ... :evil

    PAblo I understand your oil pressure concern.
    I already worked in a secondary Oil cooler for my old ADV bike
    (nowadays my dailly conmuter) where I had to reduce the oil flow
    (in order to mantain OIL pressure in the main gallery).
    In that case I installed a small carburator jet... and that was it.....
    Pressure was optimun even at low RPMs.


    Here is a pic of the Head Tops I have:

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    And here is what I want to do...

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    OK... going back to the engine and frame.....
    I got to clarify something.....
    For my understanding, dirt bike frames should be black.....
    so mud/dirt willl not notice too much :wink: (yes Im lazy)
    ....also for this particular bike I wanted the old school look of the Sach engines
    (do you remeber ? those huge unpolished Aluminium bellys on the sides??)
    so this is what I have acomplish with my limited Sheds resources....

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    Notice that the rear end has a 130/80/17 now....
    I decided to stick with a 17¨rear.... the 18¨
    (although is more respectfull of the pure blood dirt tracker concept...
    its a PITA to match with the front 19", mainly because all 18¨ rear tyres are tall...).

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    Here are a couple of shots of my "710 cc KIT" ... compared to the OEM 95mm Piston...

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    Yes....I love to show off....:deal

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    #10
  11. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    Sorry...I really have no idea why some pictures look huge and others are OK....

    EDIT:
    Problem solved...its good to have a wife with graphic designers degree ...otherwise my digital life would be misserable...
    #11
  12. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    ok.... Last Pictures of the Bike (current status)...

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    If you llok at the pictures
    you will notice that the bike lines are more "balanced" with a 17" rear wheel,
    even with a relativly LOW profile tyre as the Metzeler Karoo generation 1 in 150/70/17.....
    Also I installed this tyre in the OEM´s DR rim just to check how it looks
    (you CAN NOT use a wide tyre like this one in a 2.5 in Rim...
    it doesnt sit properly ....)...
    So the decision is to find a wider RIM in 17¨ ...
    Im afraid that SUpermoto Aluminium Rims are extremly expensive
    and not easy to find in my Country....
    but an old school Steel Rim will do the job and it would be more "in line" with the bikes concept...sort to speak...

    Details....

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    I have to find another solution to the rear LIGHT....
    This one is cheap simple and basic....
    but it just doesnt "fit" in my mind...
    SUGESTIONS??

    The License plate Holder will reamin...mainly because is a stainless steel plate and Im going to paint/plot the numbers on it (yes...I can do that here :evil)

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    #12
  13. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    This week had a slow progress, mainly because Im getting ready my ADV bike for the PRE DAKAR ride... You ´ll see, the DAkar is in january, so in September we take the time (2 weeks) to ride some of the stages.... like a mini Dakar for the non professionnal riders ... :lol3

    So, some pictures of some new details...

    A new Brat style , small Carter protection..

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    In case you havent noticed, I dont have a CNC...so everything I do is hand made....

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    Today I finished removing the tank´s paint...I´ll start repairing the tank tomorrow night.

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    #13
  14. JagLite

    JagLite Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,532
    Location:
    Anchorage Alaska
    Excellent work!


    I really like the return to twin shocks for appearance and "age".
    I do think the forks are too long to go with the look though.
    Are you considering lowering the front end?

    Have you figured what the compression ratio will be with the longer stroke/100mm piston?
    The piston didn't hit the crank? Or did you trim the skirt?

    Two thumbs up :clap for the low cost build!!
    Anyone can buy parts and bolt them on (if they have the money).
    But to build your own with what you have and what you can make is great.

    I thought I was building a budget tracker until I added up all the bits I bought and was shocked at the total spent! :eek1

    Keep up the good work!
    #14
  15. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina

    Thank you!

    Yes, the forks are too long right now.
    The solution is to Cut the springs or cut the spacer that goes inside of the forks. But that is something I need to do once the Bike is in a running condition or with its complete weight (complete running engine, oil, fuel, electronics and battery). By that moment I can really see which is the real Sag of the forks (or in other words, how much the forks are compressed in a static situation). Until that moment, the forks are dry, the seals are old and ready to be discharged, so now I can only rise the forks in th triple clamp in order to achieve a balanced view.
    Also I need to determine which is going to be the height of the bike....on the rear end I have plenty of regulation (now a days both shocks are with no Pre compression at all, and installed in middle height possible).

    To be true I havent thought about the compression ratio. Using common sense, If the piston top is the same shape as the standard one, and the Combustion chamber is the same volume, the clearence volumen is the same, the stroke is the same, but the deck height was increaced, the added displacement shouldnt change drastically the compression Ratio. MAy be a huge 10% added. Lets say that with the standard pre 1996 DR 650 compression ratio as a base line...I really need to do a BIG change in order to achieve autocombustion...:kboom

    But, that is a good question to see what an increaced bore is creating.
    I´ll go to my old faithfull University time books and look for it (I am one of those reluctant guys that does neither believe ALL what the TV says, nor ALL what Internet shows...although I trust wikipedya... :loco

    The JE piston skirt is shorter than the OEM Suzuki unit.
    The piston didnt hit the crank.... but the new sleve was larger than the original, so the cylinder didnt fit the crank :D:scratch


    What I did was, assemble the Crank tight as hell, went to my nearest machine shop, and told the guy: "I want this cylinder (with the new sleve installed) installed in this crank. Machine the crank until the cylinder Fits completely". ... and He did it....


    Thanks!

    Low production days... (i´ve been working in my Adventure DR in order to start training before September...The Bolivian Stages are in a 3500 / 4500 m of altitude, so I really need a good , flexible and easy tunning carburation, otherwise it will be hard to hit the ANDES with a crappy running bike...:muutt

    Existing rear wheel dismantled, cleaned and painted....
    Ready for new spokes..
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    I bought this extremly CHEAP STEEL rim....
    As I wrote before, Aluminum Rims in big sizes are extremely expensive...to sum up...every kid in town its a wanna be Supermotard Racer...so people is asking impossible ammounts for a Chinnese Aliuminium rim in a decent 4.25 x 17 (note that no fancy Brand like Excel wasnt even mentioned... . )

    So this new chromed oldschool steel rim in a (strange nowadays, but really old guys can recognize it) dimensions of 4,1 x 17..

    It will allow a propper fitting of a 150/70/17 .... which, by the way, are one of the most common sizes in dual sport nowadays.....and (here my lazy, redneck nature comes to the surface) is one of the sizes where you can find used , almost new and almost for free tyres.... no, I dont own a KLR...(no ofense intended, please).
    The reality is that, most of my friends that owns BIG Twins (BMW, YAmaha TDM, Suzys Svs, ETC) use tubeless tyres, and when the have a big puncture, they try to avoid using a heavily repaired tyre at high speeds, so they discharge those almost new tyres....like the KAroo you see in this pictures (instead of installing a nice 5.10 reinforced tube like I do use in this Bike and travel at a nice 110 km/h in any surface...)...resuming, dual sport 150/70/17 cheap provision granted.:evil


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    #15
  16. JagLite

    JagLite Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,532
    Location:
    Anchorage Alaska
    I posted how I lowered the front end on my DR tracker by cutting the springs and making a longer limiter spacer on the damper if you want to check out how it ended up.
    I'm happy with it.
    But, I also lowered the rear a lot.

    My build thread:
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857154
    #16
  17. Apocalipsis FZR

    Apocalipsis FZR I´m too old for this....

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    85
    Location:
    Buenos Aires , Argentina
    YEs, I saw your build threat. Nice Clean Tracker you made!!! Contest Value!!!

    Im afraid mine will be more a mixture between Tracker / Brat / RAt "self propelled roller device"...:lol3:lol3:lol3

    By the way, Im going in your direction regarding a reduced or chopped spring (even with the Idea of removing the part that has a lower Spring Coeficient - aka the soft part of the spring-) but you added a spacer in Rod damper in order to reduce the general travel of the fork, so the bike will not "head ups" under hard aceleration...or you noticed that the front suspension was unstable without the spacer in the damper rod???

    Sorry if its a big question, but you have the knowledge to save me A LOT of R&D time !!:ear :evil
    #17
  18. JagLite

    JagLite Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
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    Location:
    Anchorage Alaska
    That is interesting to think about.
    NOT installing a travel limiter spacer on the damper rod.

    Cutting the springs will drop the front end but you wouldn't be able to set the sag for your weight.
    A fork pre-load spacer (on the top of the springs) is how you fine tune the sag once the spring rate is correct.
    Without a travel limiter any preload spacer would just raise the forks tubes up without compressing the springs.

    I never considered NOT limiting the "up" travel of the fork actually.
    #18
  19. Randy

    Randy Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,503
    Location:
    Newnan, GA USA
    Excellent project!

    Being a cheap-ass myself I really enjoy seeing what a guy can do with an idea and some basic tools in his garage. :thumb

    OMG! You did WHAT??? :huh:eek1 I NEVER add up my receipts! That's a sure-fired way to spoil the satisfaction and joy of a good project. :deal
    #19
  20. Bambi

    Bambi Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Oddometer:
    730
    Location:
    Linz upon Rhine, Germany
    Hello Apocalipso and also JagLite,
    owning a Suzuki DR 750 Big in near-to original trim and painted as a replica to the first Dakar-version in Marlboro-coulours, I do like those building-threads around the bigger Suzuki DRs. Both of you did or has done a great job. Although me in person, I would have prefered JagLite's bike in plain black without the golden lining and the AJS-logo. But that's my personal taste to honour a great bike of the past without copying it.
    Kind regards, Bambi
    #20