Routing issues 60Cx/Mapsource

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by tbirdsp, May 22, 2006.

  1. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    Did the maiden voyage with my new 60Cx this past weekend. The organizers of the rally sent out the route as Garmin .gdb files.

    1. Although I had auto-recalc turned off, whenever I highlighted a route and hit "navigate", the screen said "calculating..." as if it was rethinking the route.
    I'm not sure if it changed anything, but I think it did. I also don't know what mapping product was used to lay out these routes (I have City Select v7) but if mis-matched maps were the problem shouldn't it have promted me first?

    2 . If you are navigating a route that you loaded into the unit and hit "recalculate" does it
    a) come up with a new autoroute to the destination of your original route with no regard for it (leaving your original saved route intact)
    b) change your original route?
    c) route you back to your route at the nearest via point or waypoint
    #1
  2. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    3. What speed figures does the unit uses to arrive at your "ETA at destination" ? Does it use current speed only, posted speed limits, or the speeds you put in Mapsource for your normal traveling speeds on certain types of roads?
    #2
  3. Emoto

    Emoto Sure, why not?

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    Why do you think it changed anything?
    #3
  4. Middleweightboxer

    Middleweightboxer Middleweightboxer

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    I understand your delima. After I uploaded their latest firmware my 60C was useless for uploaded routes. I think I have worked around the new software benefits.

    I set route tracking to offroad and I set it to prompt for recalculation (as I am using R&R maps, you might want to try the prompt for recalc setting first). When prompted, tell it NO for recalculating and it should display the route you uploaded without telling you what route it thinks you should follow. I just tried this last night and it looked like it was going to work but I haven't tested it on the road.

    After I uploaded the latest software, I uploaded Roads & Recs routes and it was displaying starfish shapped or multiple parallel straight line routes. Absolutely useless and it was continually recalculating.

    I have had major software problems with their last two versions.

    I can't help you with #2.

    #3 - I think it uses the calculated average speed for your ETA. When you start riding your ETA will fall until your averaged speed calculation flattens out.



    Good Luck.
    #4
  5. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    I'm going to download the routes from the unit and see if they match up with what I uploaded. There were several cases where the routes didn't hit the via points as intended, instead of a loop it would take you up to a via point and then back.
    #5
  6. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    The 60-series always does a recalc when you start navigating a route. From the GPS's POV, a "route" is not the squiggly line that existed in MapSource, but simply a sequence of via points and waypoints that define the route - it rethinks the way to get between the points at activate time.

    In addition to the recalc time, this can bite in other ways. If you're using someone else's route, they may have laid it out with a different set of maps loaded, or perhaps never intended that the route be auto-routed at all - it may be a direct route. (Most off-road or adventure-tour routes are intended to be used as direct routes, not auto-routed.) And routing preferences may have changed between MapSource and the GPS.

    If you have the same map database in both MapSource and the GPS and the same routing preferences, the GPS "should" compute the same route as MapSource. There have been reports of discrepencies, although I'm never noted any.

    While underway, a recalc generally takes you to directly to the closest viapoint/waypoint and then recomputes the route from there. Again, the routing between points is computed on the fly and never saved anywhere.

    - Mark
    #6
  7. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    Thanks Mark, your first point was my biggest question. I figured that's what it was doing, but wasn't sure. In one instance, the guy who sent out the route intended for there to be a loop through 2 via points. When I loaded it the 60Cx took me up to hit both points but instead of completing the the loop it sent me back down to where it had started.
    My buddy has a Quest 1 and he said he got a "routes do not match maps" error. He had to redo the routes with extra via points to get them to go as intended. I should have used his modified routes rather than the originals. And even then we might not match because he has different mapping software.
    I've been very careful to make sure at least MY routing preferences match between Mapsource and my units. I probbaly should have opened the original routes and then hit "recalculate" on the PC to see what it would do (while saving the original elsewhere of course).
    No insurmountable problems here, mostly just my own learning curve:cob
    #7
  8. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    Good attitude. There's a lot of folks who really get thrown by this stuff. We're still in the infancy of GPS technology and there are a lot of rough edges, especially in the map data.

    I've hard reports that the fancier GPSs (like the 2600 series) do read and use a representation of the route from MapSource which has more intermediate information than just the via points. If true, this would presumably force routes to carry over between databases and preferences more similarily.

    Generally, I never use someone else's routes without loading them up on my MapSource and confirming they go where I expect. If the provider was intending direct routes, it usually takes a fair amount of work to get things to auto-route in a reasonable way - with direct routes, the waypoints may be off the roads completely and you'll get all kinds of weird routing when you are close to the waypoints. If they're designed for auto-routing, then the tweaks are usually minor.

    Carry on,

    - Mark
    #8
  9. araspitfire

    araspitfire Been here awhile

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    Here's how I figure it, based on a small amount of data...

    In adition to earlier (no map) models, I had a Vista before I bought my 60C.

    Mapsource used to send my PC autogenerated routes to my Visa with all the necessary turn directions in it. When I got my 60C (an autorouting GPS) all that got send from the autogenerated routes was the two endpoints...

    I believe mapsource is DESIGNED to do this because you can buy the 60C without any mapping software, and if it sent the route the same was as to the Vista, then lots of people (like me) would have no reason to upgrade the maps to autorouting (on the GPS) maps...

    I could get around this little jewel by first downloading the route to the Vista, then using another downloader product, move it to the 60C, but what a hassle. I eventually bought CitySelect and have upgraded to CityNav.

    I'd guess that with the 26XX series GPS's, maps are included, so they let the route move with more detail in it...

    Al...
    #9
  10. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    OK, I think I've got this now. One thing is you have to make sure the routing preferences are the same in Mapsource and on the GPS. However, the 60Cx has no "prefer minor roads - prefer highways" variable slider like Mapsource now does. Have any of you played with this enough to know what slider setting most accurately replicates what the 60 will do? Right now I just left mine centered in Mapsource. Or does it matter?
    How do you know how many via points have to be added to make sure the unit follows your route exactly? (trial and error I'm sure).
    #10
  11. araspitfire

    araspitfire Been here awhile

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    If you know you want to go to certain roads on your route, the best thing to do is to make via points on it and force a visit to those spots.

    Put a 2 point route in Mapsource...

    Use the selection tool, and click on the route... drag the route over to the particular road you know you want visit... repeat...

    Download the route to the GPS and the 60C will recalculate it... but will include your via points... so will match it in all the places that matter...

    Al...
    #11
  12. 9Dave

    9Dave Bazinga!

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    Really depends on the length of the route and on the roads. And YMMV depending on the unit.

    My 376 will try to send me back to a via point for quite some time, if I take a different road en route. Quickest way to get it to stop seems to be when you are back on the route at a closer point to the the next via or to the destination, to turn the route navigation off and back on. Recalc might work, haven't tried it. I guess I could go in and adjust the via points, but that is kind of hard while moving.

    And sometimes based on the routing preferences (fast, direct, etc.) it will do even stranger things if there is a connecting road that you want, and a "faster" road nearby.

    I'm not complaining about the unit, as it is an incredible piece of technology. But I do realize it happens and I retain my privelege to think independently and adjust my route while driving/riding.

    I think the short answer is that if you put a via point at each turn on a road, and ones at intermediate points if you have a really long stretch, you will likely get the route you want. If not, it may try to route you up on the interestate and back if it thinks that is a better way to go.

    An alternative is to set up a track, and navigate the track instead. That way there is no routing involved.

    Dave
    #12
  13. riderchick

    riderchick Adventurer

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    OK I'm now totally confused. I'm having some of the problems mentioned in the thread. I planned specific routes for an upcoming trip to Canada using Mapsource on my laptop. Yesterday we attempted to transfer the routes, waypoints & maps to our 60CX and all that went over of the routes was the waypoints, not the actual roads that show up on Mapsource, and that means all that shows up is the start location and end.

    When we let the Garmin route the trip between the waypoints it planned a completely different route than what came up on Mapsource. Still no superhighways, toll roads, etc but a longer route (for example, from Wilmington, DE to Wellsboro, PA via Jim Thorpe, PA -- on Mapsource 248 miles 6 hours, on the Garmin 322 miles 7.5 hours). May not seem like a prob to most, but we're riding 2-up for 10 days and with this being my first week long m/c trip, I'm not sure how many 300+ mile days I can handle.

    Any ideas how a GPS Noob can get the stinkin routes from Mapsource to load on the 60CX exactly as seen on the computer?

    Jennifer
    #13
  14. ThomD

    ThomD Is this thing on?

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    First - you have to have exactly the same maps (and versions) loaded. Then you have to make sure that you have all the routing preferences set the same. Use the same "avoids", type of vehicle, road pref.
    #14
  15. riderchick

    riderchick Adventurer

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    Do you mean transferring the maps & waypoints first and then transferring the route? We did all three simultaneously during the transfer step.

    Jennifer


    #15
  16. araspitfire

    araspitfire Been here awhile

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    The 60C does this.. it doesn't download the exact route, stuck on the roads that it was stuck on on the PC... it just downloads the points that you specify... start and end... and any intermediate points (be they vias, or waypoints included in the route)... then the 60c calculates the route.. no way around this.

    As said, you can try to make sure GPS and Mapsource has the same prefrences... and you can add vias to get the same route on both.. never assume that it will be the same.

    Al...
    #16
  17. Emoto

    Emoto Sure, why not?

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    I drop way points onto roads that I definitely want to be on. To go one step further, I often like to travel through the least populous areas, so what I do is zoom out MapSource until the small roads disappear. Then I drop way points into the middle of the emptiest areas on the map (there will be no roads visible where I drop most of them at this zoom level). Then, I zoom in and drag the wayt points onto the smallest roads that they are close to. This is a good way to make a route through unpopulated areas on tiny roads. It is not a good way to get quickly from point A to B.
    #17
  18. riderchick

    riderchick Adventurer

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    Hmm, so not the answer I was hoping for, but c'est la vie. Guess I know what I'll be doing the next few nights -- adding in intermediate points and trying to get the same amount of drive time each day off the superhighways. So glad I've 3 more nights before we hit the road.... :eek1

    Thanks again! Jennifer

    #18
  19. ThomD

    ThomD Is this thing on?

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    I haven't really played with really long routes yet, so I don't know if this behaviour is normal. It should be OK to send the maps, WP, and routes to the GPS all at once, but I try to just keep a huge bunch of map sections loaded so I don't risk going off the end of the world. Loading the maps takes so long that I try not to do it very often.

    depending on you route, it may only take a few extra vias to get the route you want, so it may not be that hard to fix.
    #19
  20. R-dubb

    R-dubb Dubbious Adventurer

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    The problem has nothing to do with the sequence of loading the data. Keeping all the maps on your card (or in memory for the 60c) is not a factor. The issue is the way the 60 and 76 series save and use route data. It sucks!!!

    If using more than one type of map data, you must be very careful to be sure exactly the same map sections are highlighted for use in the "Setup Map" screen as were used for the route in Mapsource. Now for the real bitch. The GPS will skip via points to make a shorter (or faster) path to the destination. You can avoid this problem by making sure each via point is sequenced to be closer to the current point than some future via point on the route. In other words, if the route doubles back on itself, you're screwed. So, in these cases, the best thing is to use individual routes for out and back with no return vias within a single route. Therefore, each long dead end turn back or destination should end a route, with a new one for the return.

    Yes, you also need to have the same route preference set in Mapsource as in the GPS. Since the 60 series does not let you modify road speeds, you need to use the default roads speeds in Mapsource to have "Faster Time" match the computer. Also, use "Best Route" for the calculation method to ensure complete calculation. Shorter should match perfectly since the preferences don't figure into the equation. Also don't use "Avoid highways" since we don't know what weight the GPS assigns to this preference. Avoid U-turn or Toll Road should be more reliable if both computer and GPS match.

    Lastly, check between the computer and the GPS before leaving home. I tend to just look at the length of each route to make sure they match within a small fraction.

    This situation sucks the big one, since the 276 and Streetpilot series manage to avoid the whole problem by not forcing calculation within the unit. In fact, on these models you can use Autoroute on the computer and then have the route display a wiggly line on Topo maps in the GPS, with no recalc. This problem is the only thing keeping me from upgrading my 60c to a 60cx.

    It sucks.........................................

    -dubb
    #20