running tubes in a tubeless tire?

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Northwoods Yeti, Jul 21, 2009.

  1. Northwoods Yeti

    Northwoods Yeti Almost house broken

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    Are there any problems with running a tubeless tire with tubes? I ride a 2000 Triumph Tiger and would like to run some Shinko 705's. Any pros or cons?
    #1
  2. supertireguy

    supertireguy Adventurer

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    It's ok to run an inner tube in a tubeless tire.

    If you have wheels with spokes then an inner tube is the only way to keep the air from leaking out through the spokes.

    That is unless you have those special BMW rims where the spokes connect to the edge of the wheel making it air tight.
    #2
  3. pnhd65

    pnhd65 renaissance man

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    Just last week, I put a new rear tire on the wife's DR 200. I'd read about it in the past, and said I'd never put another tube in when I changed out a tire on a spoked rim.

    I sealed up the nipples with RTV, put the rim strip back in and ran a bead of said RTV the whole way around the underside of said rim strip.

    Had to drill out the stem hole a little, but put in a tubeless stem.

    I put in 2 ounces of BBs from the boy's BB gun while I was at it. (Poor man's dyna beads.)

    Cheers and good luck.
    #3
  4. Inane Cathode

    Inane Cathode Cheated Anion

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    Jesus dude, you RTV'd a street bike wheel? Wow, well. All kinds i guess.

    Anyway, tube in a tubless: Huge pain in the ass. Rather, harder than it has to be. Tubeless is way stiffer and heavier, so you have to deal with that AND not pinching a tube at the same time. Plus, bonus if you have a tubeless wheel cause now you have an air pocket between the inflating tube and the now seated tubeless tire, really hard to get it to seat up correctly.
    #4
  5. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    You can do it, all the manufacturers might say is to consider the speed range dropped by one level. Like a V should be considered an H - not good if you plan to ride around at 140 mph all day long, but no biggie for those of us who stay under 80 most of the time.

    As far as air pockets, there won't be any issue on spoked rims and very little on a cast wheel. The fact is the original cast wheels weren't tubeless due to possible porosity in the castings, my SR has tube type cast wheels. Even if there are air pockets on some cast wheels are sealed they'd leak out only if the tire was punctured. And at the shop we actually came across an old CB550K front wheel someone had "made tubless" by taping the spoke nipples over with black electrical tape in place of the rim strip - on the original 70s rim. Not something I'd recommend, but it was holding air. We put a tube back in.

    The big difference at this point between a tubeless and tube tire is a coating added within the tubeless tire as a sort of liner to absolutely seal the carcass. The tube type might actually be sealed, but it is not absolutely engineered to be sealed against air leakage.

    As far as getting up on the bead, it should not be any different. Pressure against the inside of the tire is pressure against the inside of the tire, whether it's in a tube or not in a tubeless tire. It's simply Pascal's law again.

    Run the tire you want without any problem. Observe the recommendation of realizing the speed rating be considered decreased one level, which again is no big deal - I doubt you'll be screaming around at over "the ton" for extended time periods too often on the Triumph.
    #5
  6. Northwoods Yeti

    Northwoods Yeti Almost house broken

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    Thanks for the info everyone :thumb

    ....but the shinko's speed rating is 99 mph and on occasion in very short bursts I get really close to this when passing cars.:augie Is the speed rating a conservative estimate? For example a forklift has a load limit posted on it but this number is something like 20% less then the actual max load. I'm thinking the tire won't fly off at a short flash at speed but a sustained HWY 94 across Montana blast at a ton for 12 hours might be a different story?
    #6
  7. Scottysix9

    Scottysix9 Shhh...

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    I have Shinko 705's on my BMW 650. I run tubes with no problems. Your speed rating is how fast the tire can be run for an hour before it develops problems. A few bursts above that speed shouldn't be a problem, with proper inflation and loads.
    #7
  8. Inane Cathode

    Inane Cathode Cheated Anion

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    The speed rating is less 'fly apart at speed' and more 'heat rating'. High speed makes tires really hot really fast, the better the tire can resist and shed heat the better speed rating it gets.
    Speed ratings are also 'sustained' speed ratings. You can take an 85mph tire up to 100 and back if you do it quickly, but i wouldnt want to be near anything with a low speed rated tire zipping along at cruise missile for extended periods.
    #8
  9. jfdirtybiker

    jfdirtybiker Roads are to explore

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    I had a Cagiva Grand Canyon and my friends with simalr bikes would run TKC80's with tubes all the time - no problem. Just keep the spokes tight and always run a rim liner down the middle of the inside rim.
    #9
  10. MichBiker

    MichBiker Adventurer

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    you'll get more heat yes so speed will be less. most bikes we run don't go at top speed all the time. you'll just have to play with the preesure a little and balance it well. i use them and go at 80mph for 2+ hours on the roadwith my dr650 all good now
    #10
  11. Proveick

    Proveick Long timer

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    Same for me, got a tubeless 705. Noticed the max air pressure is 41 psi versus 28 on the tube tire. Going to install with a new tube and probably run at 32.
    #11
  12. nedodjija

    nedodjija Been here awhile

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    Had the same tire on my Vstrom. My buddy and I toured Idaho couple of years ago, and I run over a huge rock with my front wheel. It got bent, so I had to stop by and inflate the tire every 20 miles. We stopped in a small town tire shop, and he had an intertube that fit my front tire. He put it in, and it was as new. I rode my bike like that for another 3K while I was searching for an used wheel on ebay. No issues what so ever
    #12
  13. Yankee Dog

    Yankee Dog Long timer

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    I put tubeless Hedinau K60 Scouts on my Tiger 800xc. About 7000 miles so far, temps up to 107f. speeds not quite to the triple digets but close, loaded 2up will all the luggage she would hold.

    Not a problem.
    #13
  14. oldgunner16

    oldgunner16 Adventurer

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    Tire Industry Association says no. The reason given is the friction caused by the tube rubbing inside the tire carcass (with the flexing of the tire)causes additional heat the tire wasn't designed to handle.
    #14
  15. dmn0507

    dmn0507 Been here awhile

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    All Ktm 990 come out of the factory with a tubeless tyre + tube.
    I made my rear rim tubeless with some silicone sealant.
    #15
  16. concours

    concours WFO for 41 years

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    Tire speed ratings are "SUSTAINED" speed, as published... you'll need a lot more motorcycle/license points to hurt it.
    #16
  17. Reddydr

    Reddydr Adventurer

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    Hi, i had flat Tire on my KTM690 Enduro fitted with TubedType 21 inch Front tire , Stranded in middle of No where I had to continue riding the bike upto 6miles on flat tire .
    After going thru the discussions,
    Like to know if i can ride better ON Tube less tires in Flat condition, As they have STRONGER SIDE WALLS Than TubeType tires?
    And if Heat is the only subject of hinderence ( in using TUBE in TUBELESSTires)
    Can We USE TUBE in V Rated tyre ?
    Hope this Vrated tires can withstand better heat?
    As the side walls in tube less tires are stronger +Adding a tube in V rated tire should be the best choice for spoked wheels with little extra weight ?
    This should help in all emergency conditions i feel ?
    #17
  18. Reddydr

    Reddydr Adventurer

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    Surprise noticed Triumph In India is selling its 800XC with Tubes In TubelessTires ?
    Think there shouldn't be any problem ?
    #18
  19. warewolf

    warewolf Tyre critic

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    Says yes, and that extra heat is why they say to drop a speed rating.
    #19
  20. Wildbears

    Wildbears Adventurer

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    We were recently looking at an Indian Chief Vintage. They run tubeless tires with inner tubes on the spoked wheels. HOWEVER, the tubeless tires are bias ply rather than radial.

    What's the difference?

    If you look at the inside of a radial tire there are diagonally arranged ridges. These result in heat generation if there is an inner tube.

    The tubeless bias ply tires (at least those used by Indian) are smooth on the inside so that heat generation from inner tube to tire contact is not a significant problem.

    Note that the valve stems are different for a tubeless rim and and an inner tube.

    The inner tube valve stem relies on a threaded valve stem with a nut on the outside or both on the outside and inside of the rim. This is not an air tight seal and will allow air to escape as the tube is inflated. And deflated by a puncture.

    The latter means that sealing the spokes will not prevent loss of air with a puncture.

    If you can "seal" the valve stem hole, the inner tube could still be completely inflated by not tightening the outer stem nut and pushing the valve stem slightly in until the inner tube fills the entire volume of the tire (the seal would need to be between the rim and the outer nut). This could be accomplished with a small amount of air pressure in the inner tube. The outer nut could then be tightened and the tube brought up to proper pressure without trapping air between the tube and the inside of the tire.

    This is fine in theory but one should be wary of real life function. For example, the seal about the base of the inner tube valve stem could become compromised during use. And this brings you back to the rapid deflation rate that can occur with a tubed tire puncture (that may be catastrophic at speed).
    #20