Scott's dampers... street and dirt differences?

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by creeper, Nov 19, 2005.

  1. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    With Stenhouse Racing now making a Scott's steering stabilizer mount specifically for the KTM 640 LC4 series, I went to eBay to see what I could find in the way of a stabilizer assembly at a discounted price.
    First, most of the stabilizers available are about the same price, very close to retail, with the occasional used unit being found for between $175 and $250. Considering a new one is $320, $250 is not such a great bargain.
    Second, many of the used stabilizers are street units vs. dirt units... and I wondered what the difference was. So I decided to ask.

    The information below in quotes is an e-mail reply from a fellow named Jake Hulsebus at Scott's Performance products. I asked him what the differences were between the street and dirt dampers, and was happily surprised by the fairly detailed explaination he provided.
    It's not often someone in a company such as Scott's has the time to reply to an e-mail with a simple answer, let alone a more time consuming one, so I'd like to thank Jake for the time and effort he put into answering my question.

    So... some things to consider. Street or dirt. As this information applies to all Scott's damper applications, there may be those of you, say a 950 KTM or 640 SMC owner who rides primarily on street, that might benefit from purchasing a street type damper vs. a dirt unit.

    C
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  2. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    passmore asked me the question a couple days ago so i had a little look into it also.

    matt at scotts was kind enough to explain to me the two way and one way damping. but then told me he personally doesn't ride so he may not be the best doode to speak to about it.

    well... i was down at the dealer anyways getting some oil and stuff so i asked my bud benny if he could help me out. now benny looks quite young, but he's been around superbikes almost as long as creeper. and he knows his shit. he was kind enough to give me a street type damper he had in stock to compare to my dirt one.

    like scotts said they do look identical. yes mine damps moving away from center, as does the street unit. here's where i call bullshit on scotts... the street damper and the offroad units don't appear to have much difference on the return to center. i find the difference to be ever so slight and could maybe be me. i didn't have the plan at the time to switch them up and try (incase i gave him the wrong unit back) but maybe i will.

    for now it's like the clorox commercial... i can't see the difference. can you see the difference?
    #2
  3. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    Another excellent tech post by Creeper. One thing to add: the "Road" version of the damper has an "R" stamped or engraved on top (right above the Scotts logo) so you can tell them apart. I bowed out of an Ebay auction after learning this.
    #3
  4. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    not all of them.
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  5. PASSMORE

    PASSMORE Just the last name...

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    Good stuff fellas... :thumb

    Creep, you got a better esponse than I did when I ordered. Dood says, " Man, I dunno - I ain't gettin' into all that - order the one you think will work for you..." :huh

    At any rate, with Colin's observations saying there may be little to no difference in feel (btw, how did you compare them?), I am hoping we will have a few road and off raod at the Tech Daze for comparison as well.
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  6. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    on my exc. back and forth. no riding. just for feel.

    the road unit i had did not have any markings on it to show it was different from the off road unit. it was packaged with an r1 tripple clamp (i think) from scotts... so it was an on road unit.
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  7. DevDel

    DevDel Been here awhile

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    The Scotts damper I had on my ZX10R had pretty firm damping even on it's lowest settings. I can't imagine anyone being happy with a street unit in the dirt.
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  8. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Considering that a state of perpetual slidadge is the way I tend to ride, this was the part that got my attention and settled the question about which damper to buy.

    However, if I trip across a minty street unit for $150... :evil
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  9. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    you will not. if you do... i get your katoom when you buy a buell :D
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  10. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    I'll buy another Buell when they pry my cold dead hands from my Sexfodee. :ksteve
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  11. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    as long as they don't leave too much of yer rotting flesh on my new bikes grips.
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  12. wadventure

    wadventure Mellow Adventurer

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    I assume you guys are talking about the V1 version (above triple clamp mount)?

    I'm trying to decide between that and the V2. I guess the V2 raises your handlebar about an inch.

    So a couple of questions about that.

    Why do you want to raise your handlebar, for comfort when standing?
    How does it affect your sitting position?

    I either have to have some knee bend, or be bent over uncomfortably to stand, so I'm kind of thinking that the V2 might be better for me.

    Does it make sense to kill two birds with one stone, and get the handlebars raised at the same time as I mount the stabilizer?
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  13. GODSPEED

    GODSPEED finger lickin' good

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    So that's why yur sellin' the HK. :lol3
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  14. bmwktmbill

    bmwktmbill Traveler

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    I think the questions to ask are first, what style stabilizer do the PD and Baja racers use especially considering their gas weight. Second I would like to know for gravel road/forest service road riding what gives the most stable ride especially loaded heavy at the rear. Third do both styles respond the same to a "sudden" hit on the front wheel from a pothole, rock or a flat tire at speed. I dont think it is safe to say we know the answer for certain. Adventure riding is special. I was supplied with a off road stabalizer by Scott and it is working great, even fully loaded with gas and luggage. However my type of riding is a long way from the mx track. Sliding is not generally an issue. My off road stabalizer works perfect on the ATV trails. They can get rough.
    Bill in Tomahawk
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  15. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    no. this conversation is about the different valving in different scotts dampers. mounting is not a consideration here.

    we can discuss height and mounting elsewhere if you like. start a thread.
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  16. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    interesting points bill. probably the best part of your post is the statement "I dont think it is safe to say we know the answer for certain". that is the way i felt when i compared both the street and off road dampers. i did have a chance to hold and compare both, but... i have an off road of my own. after this maybe a on road could be added to the r and d section just for shits and giggles. who knows. maybe i could learn something from this whole game.
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  17. potatoho

    potatoho Cheese and Rice!

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    My current opinion is that the both way damping helps with a heavier bike. I have an emig 2way on my LC4, and a scotts 1way on my 300 EXC. Wish I could swap them to find out, but the mounts are incompatible.

    My preference is to set the LC4 damping to where I can feel it, and the EXC damping to just under where it can be felt. If I don't have enough damping on the LC4 then it really bugs me when I run over soft surfaces. But you have to leave it free enough to squirm a bit, otherwise it tends to torque the whole bike rather than just the front wheel. Perhaps a 1way would prevent that, dunno.

    On the EXC, it's so light that it doesn't matter so much with or without, other than the safety of deflections.

    The two bikes are apples and oranges mainly because of their weight differences. Esp mine as I have luggage, and I'm evidently not too strong. With the LC4, leaning too far over in soft stuff is just about guaranteed to make me fall. It is the primary weakness in my riding ability and the areas I have to ride. So the damper on that bike is to keep unwanted direction turns to a minimum. On the EXC, I can correct the position without problems as it is much lighter, so the damping is just for handlebar hits and roots, rocks etc.

    There is one issue which may be more relevant to 2way damping, though it applies to all damping. You should ensure that the fitment of the tower pin and the damper lever is good. If there is play, you will feel it when riding on the street, as oscillations, because turning the bars will amplify the play against the damping. What I did was to align the pieces properly so there is no swiveling, and then I spread some goop in the pin/lever interface. It lasts for a good time, and makes a lot of difference to keep the damping seamless with small direction changes.
    #17
  18. wadventure

    wadventure Mellow Adventurer

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    Done, new thread created.



    #18
  19. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Based on the information provided and the fact that even the manufacturer thinks there may be some "cross-over" between the two designs of damper... the possibility exists that a street damper might be more beneficial on certain types of adventure bikes, used in certain ways, than a dirt damper.

    Would damping in both directions, in off-road technical terrain, with the wheel off-center be advantageous? That's doubtful, as you would be forcing the bars back to center... but I guess that would depend on the effort required to do that.
    It seems that the dirt unit is designed to dampen deflection while the street unit is intended to dampen oscillation, or head shake.

    I wonder what high speed desert and rallye racers use... or how many have even thought about it. On a high speed off-road racer, you would encounter both deflection and head shake. How about a GNCC bike? Do the KTM rallye bikes come equipped with the D or the S damper?

    It would be interesting to have two identical bikes, with the two damper types installed, that you could ride repeatedly, back to back over the same course of varied terrain. Fast sideways dirt sweepers, nasty woops, slow rocky up & down trails, 90mph twisty two lane... all the places where a damper comes into play.

    Ah well, just thinking out loud. Chances are, when I buy a damper, it will be a dirt unit… unless someone who rides the way I do, in the types of terrain I ride in, can convince me otherwise.

    C
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  20. Loadedagain

    Loadedagain making chips

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    one thing for sure they do beef the hell outa everything. check out the pin and fuel tank mounting. look at all that framewerk under the front of the tanks. nutz... these bikes are totally different animals aren't they...!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #20