Scrap Metal was an Indian

Discussion in 'Old's Cool' started by robberst, Oct 29, 2011.

  1. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    Okay, not a real indian, but today I became the owner of a bunch of scrap metal that was once and Indian. Staight off, I'll apologize for the poor pictures. My four year old can take better pictures with a toy camera.

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    Notice my selection of British tools........hammers:evil Now I need some help. Google searches are not producing much. The title says it's a 1958 Indian, I know it was made by Royal Enfield. I don't know what model it is. I think the fender on the rear tire is original, so maybe it's an Apache? Those forks in the back are not original, they came with some other parts the previous owner purchased.

    I have two engines. Both are partially disassembled with the cylinder and heads removed, but there are a few noticeable differences


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    The original engine is seized at the moment, but it looks like it has higher compression with higher domed pistons. Notice the left side cam covers on the engine in the foreground. Anyone recognize these side covers?


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    The frame seems in good shape. The tank is in fair shape, Front and rear wheels(19 inch) will clean up alright. I have a new seat for it. In the hour or so I spent rummaging through the boxes of parts, and looking at the engines, this evening, I came to realize I don't have much to work with.

    Any advice, sources for parts, encouragement, or ridicule?
    #1
  2. c1skout

    c1skout Been here awhile

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    Nice score! Er, I mean that just looks like trouble, I'll help you out and haul it all away.:D
    #2
  3. ADV8

    ADV8 Taumarunui..Darwin..

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  4. England-Kev

    England-Kev Long timer

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  5. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    I was out tinkering in the garage again this afternoon. Didn't get too much accomplished. Just separated out boxes of hardware, and started pulling the transmission off the original engine. Noticed a couple other differences between my two engines. The case halves are cast with slight differences.

    The clutch assemblies are different.

    [​IMG]

    I found the frame serial number 6178.
    The wheels are 19 inch front and 18 rear. I'm thinking now it's probably a Trailblazer. That serial number doesn't seem to fall into the 1958 serial number range, but maybe I'm looking at the wrong numbers.

    Interestingly the forks that I have came with a 21 inch wheel, and chromed triple clamps. No idea what those came from yet. I'm giddy as a school boy about this project. Researching and learning all the details is a lot of the fun for me.
    #5
  6. caponerd

    caponerd Kickstart Enthusiast

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    An Indian Enfield.

    I have two of them. There's a very active group of enthusiasts who can help you with advice, instructions, parts sources...

    Try this site.

    Or this one.

    And by all means sign up for this yahoo group. It's for Interceptor owners, but we all seem to own an Interceptor as well as other models, including quite a few Indian Enfields.

    Here's a photo of mine, as it was from 1984 until this year when I tore it down to rebuild in more original form. (the fenders and engine are from a different model)

    [​IMG]
    #6
  7. caponerd

    caponerd Kickstart Enthusiast

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    That's not a Floyd Clymer Indian. There were only a few of those built around 1971 using some Series II Interceptor engines and some frames made by Italjet.
    They only produced 90 or so before Floyd died, and production ended.

    The Indian Enfields were produced at the behest of the Indian Sales Corp. who was importing Royal Enfields into the US when the Indian factory in Springfield, MA closed in 1953. The Enfield Indians were sold in the US from 1955 up to 1960. The last ones sold in 1960 had 16 inch wheels, and were sold using the name Chief. The earlier ones all had more conventional British looks, and sold under various model names. No Enfields were sold in the US during that period under the Enfield name.
    Mine is a Tomahawk. It's a 500 twin, but most closely resembles the Royal Enfield Constellation in appearance, which was a high performance 700.
    If yours is a Trailblazer, as Kev pointed out, it would most closely correspond with the Meteor in appearance, but the engine may be the same as the Constellation engine, which was quite a bit hotter than the Meteor engine. The fenders on mine in the picture are meteor/trailblazer fenders. Mine should have alloy blade fenders. (bought some very nicely made modern production ones from India for $130/pair!)
    The Indian models did not precisely correspond with the Royal Enfield models, the factory built them according to specifications from the Indian Sales Corp.

    One of the really great advantages to owning a vintage Royal Enfield these days, is that many of the parts currently produced in India for the modern Enfields will work on the old ones.
    I've heard of people adapting the cafe racer kits you can get for modern Enfields to their 1950's or 60's twin cylinder models.
    Many of these bikes have performance on a par with the high performance models from other contemporary British makers.

    The clutch part you have in your hand in the photo is from the earlier "scissors action" cluch, which used a ball and ramp mechanism with a lever that resembled a pair of scissors to actuate, and was housed entirely in the primary case.
    The other clutch is a more conventional pushrod actuated clutch, which had a lever in the outer gearbox cover.
    The timing case in the lower picture has a cutout for attaching a Smiths tachometer drive box, which is turned by the exhaust cam. This is indicative of a higher performance engine.

    After you send the engine and frame numbers to the email address I PM'd you, you'll know what model you've got. (be sure to include the letters in front of the engine number. They're unique for each model of engine)
    #7
  8. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    Digging around a bit I found the scissor type actuator for one clutch. capo thanks for the links and info. Nice boat. I'm back to work now. That's 40 hours a week of research time:*sip* right?
    #8
  9. coastranger

    coastranger Been here awhile

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    what a project, how fun
    #9
  10. caponerd

    caponerd Kickstart Enthusiast

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    Yeah. That's a project.
    Dug out of a sand bar in Coos Bay Oregon around 1980. It's 14 feet long, had two rowing stations and a rudder, and at one time had a motor of some kind in it, as there's a hole in the keel for a propellor shaft.
    I aquired it around 1985 or so, as a partially finished project. Most of the tricky stuff had been completed (like building that mahogany transom). I still have to build a stem for it, and complete the interior fittings.
    I found out recently that it's what was known as a "whitehall skiff", built around 1920 by a well-known boat builder in Coos Bay.
    Someday, I hope to be able to row it around in Coos Bay.
    [/hijack]

    Good luck with your Enfield project, and don't hesitate to send me a PM if you have any questions.
    #10
  11. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    yep. I like the boat. I've often thought of building something like that for sailing. Instead I built a cedar strip canoe. It's a little more practical for north dakota. I did however rig it up for sailing.

    [​IMG]

    If anyone is looking at this for some excitement. STOP NOW! I could be here 20 years from now taking out one more screw. I got the stuck engine partially unstuck this evening. I was able to move it enough to pull the pull the piston pins......wait I made that sound easy. In fact I got both piston pins about halfway out before I got frustrated and gave up for the evening.
    #11
  12. caponerd

    caponerd Kickstart Enthusiast

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    Be gentle. It'll come apart. The great thing about Enfields is that you're not going to be seeing a dozen others just like yours at a vintage rally.


    I'm considering rigging my boat for sail. I had a wooden boat builder look it over and give me an assesment of what I need to do to finish it, and I asked about setting it up with a mast. He said that was very feasible, and with the shallow keel on the thing, a centerboard wouldn't even be needed as long as I'm not too ambitious with how much sail I rig it with.
    I also want to rig a sliding seat for proper rowing. I used to belong to a rowing club, with the little racing shells.
    I admire cedar canoes, and congratulate you for building one.
    Where are you in North Dakota? I have a cousin in Fargo.
    #12
  13. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    I live a little over 100 miles northwest of Fargo.


    This after a bit of work this evening.

    [​IMG]


    The large crankshaft nut was badly mangled from someone trying to get it off with a chisel and hammer. I tried a 2 inch wrench, but ended up getting it off with a pipe wrench.

    The crankshaft spins freely now. The pistons were seized up on the pins and the pins in the rod. next up, split the cases.
    #13
  14. tried-them-all

    tried-them-all Old guy who thinks young

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    surprised to see all this in this forum , but then how much more at home could I be!!!

    you can find me here: www.re-indian.com

    phil
    #14
  15. ALvis?

    ALvis? Norton

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    That looks like a 1958 Indian Trailblazer, fore runner in the line up of the RE Indian Chief.
    Hitchcock's carries a few Indian items like tank badges and RE Indian front fender Indian head. It was different than the Springfield Indian head.
    http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/home
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    [​IMG]
    #15
  16. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    Phil
    I've spent a fair amount of time perusing your website. Thanks for the effort of compiling that. The places to find much information on the interweb are few. My pile of scrap looks a lot like some of your bikes:lol3


    I started splitting the cases last night. The crankshaft doesn't want to slide out of the primary side ball bearing, but I will be persistent.
    #16
  17. tried-them-all

    tried-them-all Old guy who thinks young

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    hitchcock's buy all those parts from me: www.re-indian.com. If you want info look no further.
    #17
  18. tried-them-all

    tried-them-all Old guy who thinks young

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    scrap is the way to go!..well, the pictures are out of date - i have a line up of 14 half restored bikes now.

    heat is your friend - don't take to enfields with hammers - everything bends easily.
    #18
  19. caponerd

    caponerd Kickstart Enthusiast

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    I have a big american sized socket that I use to turn those nuts. If I think about it next time I'm in the garage, I'll check the size. (might be 1-7/8")

    Be very careful when you take the cases apart. Those two bolts in the left side of the crankcase just above the cam tunnels have to be removed so you can get at two "cheese headed" screws that join the case halves between the cylinder spigots.
    If you don't know about them, you'll be prying forever with no luck, and probably some irreperable damage.
    It's safe to pry wherever there are bolt lugs.
    The timing side bearing is a roller, and should come apart, leaving the crankshaft in the left side case half, which has a ball bearing which the crankshaft tightly fitted to.
    There's a special tool which bolts to the right case half to push the crankshaft out of the ball bearing, but if the bearing is shot anyway, I've had good luck drilling the rivets out of the ball retainer, and moving all the balls to one side of the bearing so they fall out. Once you have it apart, the races can be extracted with conventional pullers.

    There are three holes in the timing side case, which you can extend a thin punch into, to drift the timing side outer race out with. Locate the three peen marks on the inside which prevent the outer race from coming loose, and grind them down with a small rotary file (dremel tool) before you attempt to drive the race out of the case half.
    #19
  20. robberst

    robberst Been here awhile

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    I'm pretty careful with the hammers, I'm a small aircraft mechanic and take apart lots of EXPENSIVE, soft, thin crankcases. A second go at it and the cases came apart with relative ease. I spent a couple hours and made pullers for the case halves out of wood and studs and a few wood wedges. The dremel tool file worked great and the main bearings are removed.



    The left case half has had a hole punched in the oil tank, and a weld repair. (the shiny area with burnt edges) It's a strange spot for a hole, between the oil tank and transmission.

    Anyhow a couple silly questions for you experts, (phil, caponerd) The timing spocket on the crank will not budge.......the parts list at hitchcocks shows a pin, but it just looks keyed to me. Also, how are the cam followers installed or removed? Sorry for the dumb questions, I haven't bought a manual yet, and I'm too impatient to wait, but on the other hand it brings up a point. This ADVrider forum is great! Where else can you find info like this? It's been my oracle for bike repair. I live in a remote area and know no one with similar interests in motorcycles. Just a tip of the hat to you all.:thumb
    #20