Side Effects throwing out some bait...

Discussion in 'Hack Vendors' started by brockoli, Mar 1, 2011.

  1. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    -Brock Smith
    Side Effects
    #21
  2. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    -Brock Smith
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  3. OlyRider

    OlyRider Long timer

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    Brock,

    Amazing weldinfg and fabrication!! Truly.

    But isn't you electric tilt motor mounted "upside-down? Rookie question, but I thought this same set-up gave EastBloc fits when Dauntless did this on his hack.
    #23
  4. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    I have to agree that this setup is very Sexy!!! :drif

    As far as the actuator, I don't think there is a problem with this unit, as it is actually a fully sealed unit designed for wet locations. Unlike the cheaper unit that Dauntless was using (still is???).

    It is the same unit that Hannigan uses on their sidecars. You can see it here mounted in an even more vunerable location in the front half of the wheel well where it gets all the water/slush/debris thrown on it off of the wheel.
    [​IMG]

    One thing which you can see that I did was install some neoprene shock covers over the shaft on the actuator as well as over the shock on mine because I ride all winter and get all sorts of salt/muck thrown up in there.

    But after three winters' worth of riding the original actuator is still going strong... And I have talked with other Hannigan owners who have never had an issue with their TILT actuators.
    It is all about the builder using the correct parts to begin with...

    It looks like Brock knows what he is doing! :clap
    #24
  5. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    Thanks for the info!
    I asked because I have a Black Project on the boards right now, and need to source some hubs that can be driven. But ideally, they would be splined to work with a Ford Fiesta/Escort driveshaft.

    Wish you were closer to Wisconsin, I would just contract with you to do the build after I gather the pieces... :deal
    #25
  6. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    Wisconsin isn't far, Australia is far. People bring us their stuff from all over the place, it's just if you're willing to travel. I can always come and pick it up, it's cheaper than coming out, taking time of work, traveling home then coming back to get it when its done. i pick it up, build it, you fly out and get it and ride it home. I drove 4000kms round trip to drop off our South American travelers in San Fransico in December to continue on their trip. :D
    Thanks for the actuator reply, The Enerpak's are great, very durable. I think I have only seen one or two ever fail from useage, and they were used a lot!!
    As for the hubs, find some unit hubs from the Ford Fiesta then. As long as it from the new ones, the old Fiesta didn't use unit hubs. Time to make some good friends at the local parts store. Mine let me wander through the huge warehouse searching for just the right item, as long as I put back in the correct spot what I don't need, hahaha. Inventory nightmare!

    Best of luck on your project.
    -Brock Smith
    Side Effects
    #26
  7. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    Looks like your swing arm is flexing nicely to let the inside sidewall polish up the arm :wink:. You need to slow it down in the corners I think , hahahaha.
    -brock
    #27
  8. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    Me corner hard??? :evil :lol3

    That swingarm is actually pretty rigid, It was more an issue of Hannigan trying too hard to make everything fit tightly together and then going with a relatively wide tire for the rim they used. You can see how close the brake rotor is to the swingarm, and also see that it was rubbing on the actuator and its' lower mounting bolt at the front as well...
    Just really tight packaging in there.

    What I did was go to a tire that is one size narrower, and have not had any problems since.
    In the winter months I go with an even narrower trailer tire/wheel package which gives me less rolling resistance out to the side there, especially when breaking through fresh snow or deep slushy stuff on the street. (But has been reported to give a harsher ride for the sidecar passenger.)
    #28
  9. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    Ya, I know they are tight, and a thin wheel spacer pushes the wheel out too far and it hits the inside of the wheel well, oh well. hahaha. Happy trails!
    -Brock Smith
    #29
  10. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Hey Brock I'm curious about something...

    Have you ever made a "All you can eat" outfit. You know a All terrain, All weather, No excuses, No limits, two wheel drive kind of machine, if so, do you have pictures of it, specially after a bunch of miles and bumps on the road.:ricky

    Thanks

    ricky
    #30
  11. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    I haven't made one that meets your mentioned ideas. I can build whatever you would like. The biggest factor is money, the second is time. I can put your name on the list if you would like. I have been asked about adventure outfits a lot lately. The most common question is which enduro/ dual sport bike to use. The answer is none of them. As good as dual sport and enduro bikes are, they lack one thing for extreme sidecar use...horsepower. This is going to cause a storm of replies about how peoples bikes have more than enough power and they don't need to race or speed. I'm not saying you have to. My truck has 400hp, I only use maybe half that to drive around town, if that. but when I fill it up with stuff and go play off road in four wheel drive I know I'm not stressing the motor by over working it, plenty of power when you need it and the driveline is built to handle it and the load. Same applies for a sidecar outfit. We already put more stress on the bikes when we put a sidecar on them. For the most part, they work very well for the job at hand. However....there is room for improvement. You're going to ask, "well, what bike should I use then?". Answer is something with power, who cares what the frame is, aluminum, steel, tube, box section, stressed engine or cradled. Get something with some power. If I were to build one for myself (when time permits, hahaha) I would unquestionably use a ZX-14 (200hp is always nice!). Throw away the swingarm, forks, wheels, suspension and build a cradle frame sidecar outfit (similar to the Triumph I am building now) where the bike and its frame get lowered in to the sidecar chassis. The frame that the suspension mounts to and stresses are totally independent of the stock motorcycle frame work, causing no additional stress on the stock frame. That's how you get away with extra drive line setups, long travel suspension, car wheels and tires, without breaking the frame or having to make the 'performance' parts so spindly small as to not over stress what they are bolting to. Sorry for the long reply. This is how I think rigs of this nature should be built. No struts and adjustment with small sub-frames trying to tie it all together. All this does is move the weak spot somewhere else and you will be forever chasing it. Build it right the first time for anything you want to throw at it. If a basic setup works for your needs, then use it, if you want to go all out, do it all out, don't half build it thinking you can go all out with it. Just my thoughts. So.....if I build 'IT', will 'THEY' come?
    Regards,
    Brock Smith
    Side Effects
    #31
  12. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Brock since the first time a saw a replay from you I decide that I like you, hell since the first great picture I decide that I like you, Just check my updated "Signature" (I have never done that for anybody) And this very posting makes it even more concrete that you have a very clear understanding of the many aspects/factors related to this craft.

    Yes your prices are going to be one of does "Put Up or Shut Up" kind of scenarios, same as it will be with any high caliber European manufacture charging "Per-Man-Hour", For sure I'm not in the ball park but at least I can be a "Groupie"

    For now I can only wish you the very best, I can not wait to see more of your work and learn little by little and maybe some day give you some useful input, Yes I do know some stuff but compare to you I feel like I don't know shit..:eek1
    #32
  13. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    One thing that some of the big displacement dual-sport bikes DO have in their favor as a potential sidecar tug donor is the fact that they either come with, or have available, BIG fuel tanks without the need for complicated auxiliarly tanks, transfer pumps, or carrying a jerry can and spilling fuel over your paint job on the side of a sand dune somewhere...


    We really SHOULD compare notes.... :deal :ear
    I have been working on the design phase of just such a project for my next rig and have some prelimilary stuff already sketched out for how to do the 2WD relatively simply, and can even incorporate a reverse gear in the mix pretty easily as well.

    Of course, I still prefer a more old-school motor with threaded valve adjusters that I can get to without taking half of the engine apart.... And no radiator to lose all of its' precious bodily fluids all over the ground at an inopportune moment when I am too dehydrated to refill it from my bladder 100 miles from nowhere. :1drink
    So my choice of powerplant is something that I already know and trust, the 110hp BMW R1200 Boxer.
    And getting the gearing right can help alot regardless of how much power you have. The German army slogged through some pretty nasty mud with their side-valve R75M's pulling a three-man crew, gear, & sometimes even a trailer. All with only 27hp!!!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    Very similar to what Mobec does with their Duo-Drive and Super-Drive frames I suspect, but taking it one step farther. Adding in the front suspension as well, and a rigid cradle to bolt the bike/engine to.

    For suspension, I have been looking at the options between A-arms, leading/trailing swingarms, or a 5-link setup (similar to what sandrails use).
    Each have their own advantages and difficulties.


    If your price is within my budget, YES... :D
    #33
  14. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    Thanks Ricardo, much appreciated.
    BMWzenrider, agreed, each have our wish lists and what works for what we want to do. The R1200 is a great machine and powerplant, no doubt. The old military hacks with minimal hp, did the job and did it well. I like to have more hp than needed. ( is it wrong to want a super charger for my truck and to turbo my GS1000?) Great ideas on on the suspension setups. A lot of designs differ with the chosen power transfer (driveshaft, chain, hydraulic, flux capacitors). A-arms don't like chains if the arms are pivoting off the sidecar frame, shafts don't overly care for linked setups unless the driveshaft has a slip yoke or runs perfectly parallel up and down, and that poses problems to. SO many choices, so many options, so many great ideas, never enough time, money, or space. hahaha. Thanks to everyone for the great input and feedback on here. It's great having conversations about a common interest, as strange as our intersts may be, and being able to talk about totally different concepts and not have people think you are some crazy guy in Canada (although I am well on my way, hahaha).

    Sitting well outside the box,
    Brock Smith
    Side Effects
    #34
  15. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    I think Guys like BoB Pelikan & his RotoHak are on the right track, building a chassis from the ground up and locating the engine where it makes the most sense, Yes on a road going Hack, center of mass is not as critical as it is on a "Dirt traveling" machine

    Two wheel drive, A-arm suspension, All the power you will ever need, what else you want....???

    Well a Motor seating three feet more forward will be nicer, but who is counting
    [​IMG]

    Also about a year ago Scoot our sidecar guru post a picture of a European sidecar that was ready to compete at the dakar with a similar set up, rear engine, two wheel drive, big tank where the engine used to be but I can not find the picture to save my life..
    #35
  16. BMWzenrider

    BMWzenrider The Road Scholar

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    One thing that the boxer powerplant arrangement has over most of the inlines is that nice wide torque curve that starts at pretty low RPM's and just lets it pull strong off the bottom, even if you are lugging it a bit.

    Of course, the new BMW K1600 inline-6 blows that concept right out of the water with 75% of its' max torque available from 1,500rpm all the way up to redline. :eek1
    Now THAT is a powerplant that sounds like it was made for pulling a sidecar!
    Compact, powerful, and with loads of torque right from idle... :deal


    Not at all, my old R75/HitchHiker rig was just fine, but I lusted after more power which drew me to find a R100RT to mount that lightweight sidecar to. And then I eventually felt the "need" to upgrade to the R1200 rig that I currently have.
    I think that some people just begin to crave more speed/power.... :evil
    {Not that there is anything wrong with that...}


    I agree, every suspension solution has its' own challenges as well as strengths. The trick is to decide which one works best for the purposes that the vehicle is being designed for.

    Any shaft driven IRS is going to want some kind of slip coupling at one end to work properly. Either a plunging type CV joint as is common on the inboard end of front-wheel-drive cars or a slip spline CV as used on the 930 CVs which are common in the sandrails and 4x4 community.

    Although I have seen one novel sandrail IRS setup which used a rigid shaft drive going through a pair of phased univerals. It uses the rigid shaft as the upper suspension links. No idea how well it worked in practice, but a novel approach!
    [​IMG]

    I am leaning towards using the 930 CV's in my design because of the relatively high working angle that they are capable of, and how commonly available they are.
    Also, they are a flange mount model, which means easy removal/replacement in the field if required. You could carry a spare joint & boot pre-greased in a sealed zip-lock and replace a failed joint relatively easily out in the boonies if you were on an adventure trip and find a replacement spare in the next big town. (or at least get one ordered in without much drama...)

    Also, because the sandrail and 4x4 community is starting to standarize on this size joint there are sources for wheel hubs with this flange/spline readily available in the aftermarket as well as lists compiled of what production hubs work with it. (Easier sourcing of parts...)
    #36
  17. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Brock where did you go...?
    We want to see more cool pictures and projects but more important read about your ideas and concepts since they make so much sense.

    So what do you think about "Three wheel drive" using a "A-arm" type set up like the rotohak...??
    #37
  18. brockoli

    brockoli build of cool stuff

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    Hi, I'm here, been really busy on the Triumph, working late on it. Front fender is on, rear fender/plate mount/taillight mount all done, exhaust is on, saddle bags mounted and supported, blah blah blah. I'll have some more pics of it in the Facebook link, check often.
    As for a 3 wheel drive unit... The front wheel driving has always been an issue. Think of a 4x4 truck on the street in 4 wheel drive. It scrubs hard in the corners and drifts wide through high speed corners. No doubt in the dirt that you wold have great traction and drive, but there are a lot of down falls to the front wheel driving. If you put a viscous coupler in line to the front wheel, then it's a different story. Subaru and others have that setup, it works well for sure, but I don;t think that a high performance rig for all terrain would overly benefit from all that. Let the front wheel steer, maybe consider steering the sidecar wheel that is also driven. It's a whole can of worms that needs to be opened carefully or else you get a bunch of cool stuff and ideas that don't work together. Using a car engine...great, Bob's rig is really cool and well thought out. Size for size though, you can get more hp out of a smaller package with bike engines, it's just the final drive is always a tough one to get right. You can relatively easily get 400+ hp out of 1300cc of bike engine. The rotory's are capable of that too but in a bigger package with more weight. And once you get the weight and traction where you want it, it wheelies. You can see the wheelie bar on his rig, sidecar side only. Anyone who has wheelied a sidecar outfit, especially a 1 wheel drive unit, knows it's a scary situation. Makes for turning in parking lots easy though :D. Without going full computer traction sensor control with adjustable diff's and so on and so on, there is only so far you can go before you have to incorporate a lot of technology to help you out. And who writes transmission programs for 3 wheeled, 2 wheel drive, 1 wheel steered vehicles?? They are a strange breed for sure.
    Keep checking on pictures. I'll load some more up either tonight or tomorrow. Keep the ideas rolling guys, you may persuade my yet :thumb
    Regards,
    Brock Smith
    Side Effects
    #38
  19. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Come on Dude quit been a El Chepo skater act and get your self a smugmug account or if you like send me the pictures on a email and I post them on my own gallerys so you can post them her full size, Facebook is for "Kiddos" when it comes to Business time to be a BigMan now...:-)
    As usual your words are full of wisdom, what about running some kind of "Interrupter" so the front wheel drive is totally disconnected from the transmission until you need it (just thinking out loud here) in any case you are by far the only builder in this side of the ocean that even considers the possibilities and that is very telling at least in my book:evil

    Here is a example of a three wheel drive and I have to agree it looks kind of clumsy, but far better than that Ural on the video than that Ural with the "El Chepo PTO" running parallel to the length of the bike restricting the turning radius among all kinds of wrongs things.
    [​IMG]
    "400+ hp out of 1300cc of bike engine" How with four Turbos, a super charger and nitrometane:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

    Just kidding, But don't you think the poor thing will be under a lot of stress, don't you think is better to get a tuned VW and/or even better a Subaru engine and start from there, they are already making sick power on their rally cars, hell even the stock engines are more than plenty
    We reach. (well some members did and I agree) that the "Wheelie bar" is more a device to account for the frame flexing than from the front wheel lifting, but you are right, that engine will provide plenty of trouble to burn out does tires from san francisco to new york with out complain.


    Again one word, SmugMug
    #39
  20. dentedvw

    dentedvw Where did I put that

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    My mind = blown. :eek1

    Found you from Ricardo's suggestion. Wow, incredible work.
    #40