Soccer Thread V1: Klinsmann for Gold?

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Bshelton, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Josephvman

    Josephvman I'm the Decider

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    I didn't realize Wondo was 30, but you're right. It's really hard to predict how well a top american in MLS will do over there. Donovan never seemed to find his game in Germany, but then Dempsey goes to europe and tears things up!

    I took a Scottish buddy of mine who through the years has coached one of Houston's very top amateur teams (Rangers, go figure!) to his first MLS game a couple of seasons back, and ten minutes in he asked me what in the hell Geoff Cameron was doing playing in MLS. At that point he only had a few touches, but it was the vision and ability to handle the ball under pressure while looking down the field rather than the ball or the defender in front of him that he focused on. I don't think there's much question that he has been Stoke's most solid player this year and the biggest reason they're mid-table and not at the bottom where they usually live. I was excited to see Stoke sign another from MLS, Brek Shea, right at the transfer deadline last week, and wonder how the fans will receive a second american over there.




    #41
  2. Stinez

    Stinez Rhymes with Heinz :D

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    I think Stoke will be VERY happy with Shea and if that happens I think it could open up opportunities for more American' to play in the various European leagues. :deal

    And it could give more of our younger kids an opportunity to join some of their Soccer Academies. That IMO should be our primary desire if we want to eventually become a soccer power.
    #42
  3. wxwax

    wxwax Excited Member

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    Don't forget that when Donovan went to Everton he was a smash hit. They loved him and wanted to keep him. Horses for courses, I guess.

    The game in England is so international that I doubt there's a prejudice against American players. Howard, Donovan and Dempsey have all played at a high level there.

    There is a prejudice against MLS, and I share it. After watching Prem games, I find it really hard to watch MLS. Everything about it is a big step down. I'd guess the level of play hovers somewhere between 2nd and 3rd division in England. Some good players emerge, but overall the players' technical ability is pretty bad and although I'm no soccer strategist, I'd say their awareness and understanding is as well.

    Let's hope Altidore finds his scoring boots on Wednesday. The US needs to assert itself. So far Klinsmann has scarcely been an improvement on his predecessor. Good news that Timothy Chandler has finally given up on his dream of playing for Germany will be formally tied to the united States from now on.

    Everybody cringe, FOX is forcing an American with no soccer background to be its lead commentator for World Cup soccer. It's the excitable Gus Johnson. And to make us suffer even more, they're going to saddle him with Warren Barton for the Champions League match between ManU and Real Madrid. Barton's bearable in studio, but my god he sucks as a match commentator.
    #43
  4. Bshelton

    Bshelton Been here awhile

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    I hate Man Utd, but Gary Neville is the best pundit I've ever heard.
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  5. Stinez

    Stinez Rhymes with Heinz :D

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    :baldy

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  6. ThePikeman

    ThePikeman German n00b

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    I hope Klinsmann's track record doesn't surprise you He is an awful coach from a tactical perspective, but a great team manager. I hoped he'd know that and get help with the tactical adjustments.

    Admittedly, he also has to deal with a change in playing style and ageing of a good bunch of players in the team. Changes take time and he is probably setting the US team up to reach a knock out phase without luck.

    You'll only see what he tore down behind the scenes in a few years.
    #46
  7. Stinez

    Stinez Rhymes with Heinz :D

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    He's in charge of all US Soccer at this point.
    I'm hopeful that we'll see what he's built, and that we can maintain, in the next ~10 years once our quality 8-10 year old's start to reach the top levels. :deal
    #47
  8. TheWorstKind

    TheWorstKind In the Wind

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    I guess I had unrealistic hopes for Klinsi to work magic with the US boys. Truth is, he has limited talent to work with. After watching France vs Germany friendly, then watching the taped US game, wow, what a difference. Skill and speed of play was sorely lacking for the US.
    #48
  9. Stinez

    Stinez Rhymes with Heinz :D

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    It's got to be a long range plan because most of our top athletes don't choose Soccer at this time. With the right developmental programs we can only hope to attract some of those top kids away from our more main-stream and higher profile sports. :deal

    Many of us have wanted the country to become a consistent Soccer power for decades and IMO we owe it to ourselves and to Klinsmann to give him time to build a base capable of being consistently competitive.
    #49
  10. Bshelton

    Bshelton Been here awhile

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    Could not have put it better myself. There will be no instant success in USMNT soccer.
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  11. wxwax

    wxwax Excited Member

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    It might help if Klinsmann were to settle on a line-up. He has yet to start the same 11 in any match he has managed. I understand he's searching and evaluating, but we're in the World Cup hexagonal and it's time to put away the toys.

    The US doesn't have a lot by way of skill. But to me the squad's greatest shortcoming is on defense. For a country which has produced excellent 'keepers, we seem to be incapable of producing great center-backs.

    I'm less concerned that there's no American Messi. Soccer is wonderful in that determination and organization can make-up for a lack of natural ability. But you need the right coach to make it happen. And you need good defenders. Right now it looks like the US has neither.

    I agree with the concept of a national playing style and a soccer organization that's unified from top to bottom. It's the way forward and it's a good one.

    However, in the meantime we have a damn World Cup to qualify for. Mexico just gifted the US two points. Let's not look that gift horse in the mouth.
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  12. ThePikeman

    ThePikeman German n00b

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    Klinsmann will keep fishing in Germany for defense.

    Chandler has finally decided for the US, so at least a replacement for Cherundolo is there. Brooks is on his way to being a good center back. Fabian Johnson can cover the left. Now you only need another center back. Maybe Jermaine Jones could cover there. He even improved his disciplinary record. Only one straight red and one yellow-red.

    I haven't even left the Bundesliga so far and 3 of the players are still young or emerging.

    What's missing in the US is soccer education between youth teams and college.
    #52
  13. wxwax

    wxwax Excited Member

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    The argument here is that college is an impediment to a player's progress. That college coaches are too fixated on winning and not enough on development. Also, they're tactically naive. And finally, by their very nature colleges will favor different systems and thus shipwreck the idea of a consistent national playing style, as found in Spain, copied by France and then Germany. I believe the above is how Klinsmann feels.

    Although Jones made a fantastic pass for the US goal last match, overall he is a frustrating and disappointing player. I can't see him at fullback, either. Maybe I'm wrong.

    Chandler has a lot of work to do to impose himself on this team. He didn't do so in his first official match. I've liked him since he made his first start in a friendly. I hope he becomes a strength, the team needs at least one solid guy in the back 4.

    You may like Brooks. But to me, whatever combination Klinsmann, and before him Bradley, put at center-back has always looked confused, prone to panic and easily penetrated.

    I'm far from being an expert on the US men's team. Just a frustrated fan. Here's a decent take down of Klinsmann after the loss to Honduras.
    #53
  14. ThePikeman

    ThePikeman German n00b

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    Brooks is/was at the Hertha Academy here in Berlin. He does play in the German U20, so he shows some quality.

    When college aged, the technical education of the players should be mostly finished. What's lacking in the USA are clubs with an academy for players between 10 and 18. That's when technical abilities are taught. There's also the start of tactical awareness to consider. Efficient pressing in defense, positioning in space to be a passing option and forcing defenders out of position to open spaces. It isn't necessary the streamlined style that's played in Germany now, it is more the overall improved tactical and technical education. Most players have the ability to learn different tactics in short time (when not totally different from the normal). The general rules stay the same.

    When watching a high class game next time, have a look at the players of the attacking team without the ball. They always try to set up triangles to make at least two passing options available. That was very noticeable in the France - Germany game. There wasn't time to train any running routes so only these general rules of positioning and passing could be seriously relied on.

    I highly recommend the Arsenal - Bayern match tomorrow. Both teams have good passers and going by Bayerns scary form this season, there will be goals.
    The German Cup game between Bayern and Dortmund on the 27th will probably be with less goals, but it will be a tactical beauty. Since they do the whole program with extra time and penalty shootout if necessary, there will even be a winner.
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  15. wxwax

    wxwax Excited Member

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    Yes, thanks. I'm afraid Arsenal will be out of their depth.

    You're correct about training youth before 18 and that's where Klinsmann's plans are important for the future in the United States. It's going to be interesting to see how it all works. The United States doesn't have Europe's tradition of apprenticeship. Soccer clubs here don't have serious youth academies, no money for it. Soccer here is more associated with the middle class and middle class young men are pressured to attend a university. So trying to apply a European or South American model to the United States is going to be an interesting challenge.

    I don't pretend to be particularly astute about tactics and strategies but I do watch a fair amount of celery (missed just the one match over the last two years) and understand the basic strategies.

    For my money Bob Bradley's conservative, cautious style was a good match for the talent he had on hand. If Charlie Davies hadn't wrecked his career in a car crash I think the United States would have been a shock team at the last World Cup. Whatever it is that Klinsmann is trying -- and it's not clear that even he knows what it is -- it's not working.
    #55
  16. ThePikeman

    ThePikeman German n00b

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    The academies do not neglect the education of the players anymore. They are set up as boarding schools with own schools or in cooperation with local schools. Up to the point when it decides, if they can go pro, they have the same education as their peers of the same age. Going to university after any career is done easy enough.

    The problem with the MLS is, that they are pure business. Then there is this purely socialist draft system and so on. It's good investment for european clubs to have a good academy. Take Dortmund for example. Götze is their own "product" worth about 30 million € now. Getting a player out of their academy every 3 years or so will be enough to make it worthwhile. There will be enough players not good enough for them that can be sold on for their "cost". Damn, it is simply wrong to write about humans with these terms.

    Klinsmann is waiting for the team to "click". There is no guarantuee, that it will.
    #56
  17. wxwax

    wxwax Excited Member

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    That's the European and South American model. I'm not sure it will ever be replicated here. Different culture.

    You make an excellent point below, that the draft precludes club academies in the US. No point if you're going to lose your players.

    It is amusing that the self-described champions of capitalism have a more socialist sports culture, while "socialist" Europe has a more free enterprise system. :)

    In order for a team to click, you need to settle on a formation and a line-up, neither of which Klinsmann has done.

    Contrast that to Roy Hodgson in England. New coach. But he knows exactly what he wants. Despite fears that the England team would be a mirror of his cautiously dull Fulham teams, once the players learned their roles they were capable of highly creative and entertaining play. England's play against Brazil in the recent friendly was evidence of that.

    I suspect the reason Klinsmann can't settle on a team or a formation is because he doesn't know what's best. Unfortunately, the team can no longer afford his indecision. Time has expired.
    #57
  18. ThePikeman

    ThePikeman German n00b

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    From my point of view it is more a big show than a competition. If somebody gets too weak, he gets propped up or the team gets moved.

    As far as I have seen from Roy Hodgson is, that he is playing every player in position with primitive and easy tactics and prays for some individual quality.
    That's about what Bradley did with the US team. That's nothing for the future.

    Sorry... game time now. :evil
    Arsenal is in for a (rape) date night.
    #58
  19. wxwax

    wxwax Excited Member

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    I wouldn't knock it. Ask Bayern. :D
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  20. ThePikeman

    ThePikeman German n00b

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    They got a shakeup as they wanted... It was just a few miles too fast for them.
    That was a nice game.
    #60