State bans loud exhausts... fatalities jump 18% in one year!

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by wiseblood, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. Offcamber

    Offcamber Long timer

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    Why not just work to educate the "stupid" people rather than having the government force good judgement on them.

    Many of the people I ride with don't wear helmets or I should say they didn't. I always wear one and usually have on my Aerostich suit....helmet gloves boots and jacket a minimum...sometimes I will wear jeans instead riding pants....blasphemy I know.

    Over the course of one season several of these helmet-less riders have started wearing helmets and a few others have commented that this season they are going to start....why? because they see me put the gear on every ride....no matter how hot it is...or "uncool" I may look.

    I took plenty of ribbing but I just shrug my shoulders and say I value my life and skin....but its your right to be stupid with yours....
    It obviously had an effect...
    #21
  2. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    #22
  3. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

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    Why should I pay more for insurance because of some fools lack of common sense?

    AFAIC, It's more about the high(er) cost of insurance premiums that everyone else has to pay because of these folks "freedom of choice" to become layed up in a hospital for a few weeks, incapacitated for months and or a vegetable for the rest of their life.
    $20,000 policy? A freakin drop in the bucket for a serious accident with head injuries.
    #23
  4. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

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    Not when it affects others lives and insurance premiums. :deal:deal
    #24
  5. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

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    There sure are a lot of folks afraid of the "govment" coming for everything they own...
    [​IMG]

    Pssst. Hes looking for black helicopters. :lol3
    #25
  6. Offcamber

    Offcamber Long timer

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    Can you show the study that proves that??:deal

    So now that the insurance argument has reared its head we can counter with....what about all the people who smoke drink alcohol and eat to much fatty foods??? They drive your insurance premium up higher than any helmet-less motorcyclist.

    In fact someone involved in a serious crash with out a helmet is more likely to die than live many years with a debilitating injury. The injured rider will probably cost more in the long run. This theory has been proven with smokers....they die earlier than non smokers thus not costing as much in health care cost in their old age.

    :lurk:pot
    #26
  7. cliffy109

    cliffy109 Long timer

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    Slippery slopes exist. They just take a lot more time and are not as steep as some assume. Take smoking for example. In the mid-70's, if you had suggested banning smoking in all restaurants, airplanes and all indoor workplaces, people would have called you an extremist. The anti-smoking lobby didn't start with proposing $1.00 per pack taxes. They started small. They suggested requiring non-smoking sections on airplanes and restaurants. They created a logical argument as to why this was good policy. They then used that accepted logic to move to the next step. Then the next and the next. Once the basic logic is accepted, it gets easier to move to the next step.

    If saving lives is the only goal, then all manner of human activity can be targeted in the name of that goal. Because of this, my goal is not caught up in saving lives. It is promotion of freedom. Freedom means you may have to live (or die) with the consequences of your choices freedom has granted you.
    #27
  8. wiseblood

    wiseblood Hall Monitor

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    In NY and NJ, violation of the helmet law is no-points, and a $20 fine ("equipment violation"). When considering the risk / consequence of not wearing a helmet, doesn't the risk / consequence of a $20 fine seem... kinda small?

    I'm just saying... if someone strongly does not want to wear a helmet, why are they letting the risk of being caught (moderately small), the consequence of which is a $20 fine (tiny) stop them? Compared to the risk of getting seriously injured and killed in a crash (75% of which are caused by other drivers), the fine seems inconsequential.

    Even tiny fines, however, might ever-so-slightly tilt the table towards smarter behavior. In other words, make it easier to act smartly, and a little more difficult to act stupidly. Shouldn't smart actions be less difficult than dumb ones?

    And, if an 18 year old kid (an age not generally known for wisdom, or strength in the face of dumbshit friends) is given a tool with which he can do what makes him feel safer, while saving face ("Guys -- I'm not a pussy. I just can't risk another ticket"), then why not?
    #28
  9. Montague

    Montague UDF Adventurer

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    Get a Ural, it is proven fact that loud gears save lives!
    #29
  10. bwalsh

    bwalsh UUU, UUU!!!

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    Produce a study that disproves my statement. :evil

    Answer this question...who pays for uninsured patients hospital bills?

    Regarding smokers not costing as much...how much do they cost while they are in and out of hospitals, clinics, etc., while they are still breathing? You know, before they die early.
    #30
  11. single

    single Been here awhile

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    Here is some historical data regarding Michigan and rider fatalities:

    http://publications.michigantrafficcrashfacts.org/2011/10yr_9.pdf

    Notice that from 2011 to 2012 the fatalities "jumped" from 109 to 129. Notice also it jumped from 105 to 125 from 2008 to 2009? No change in helmet laws either? Guess we just can't explain that jump, but for 2011 to 2012 we are totally sure it's due to helmet laws?

    Also no data about miles ridden? Or even basic things the state should obviously have on hand such as motorcycle endorsements given? Did you realize 2012 was a record warm year for Michigan, and there were probably many more riders on the road for longer? But this jump is totally explained by helmet laws?

    I'm not objectively against helmet laws, but I am against otherwise intelligent people throwing away all sense to argue for a position that is not justified, especially when those otherwise intelligent people are arguing for legislation that affects a severe minority of the population (motorcycle riders). The numbers simply don't prove the case, and you may be surprised to learn that there are very very few studies regarding motorcycles which do support the idea that "helmets save lives". You'll notice no helmet manufacturer says their helmet will save your life, due to the lack of evidence and legal reasons.

    I am all for trying to understand why so many motorcyclists are killed every year. The fact of the matter is, so far the data does not point to the lack of helmet laws as being a factor, and until we have higher standards for the way we collect data about motorcycles and motorcycle crashes/fatalities, we may never know. It will take intelligent people to remain intelligent and recognize that these "news articles" are just plain junk.
    #31
  12. Offcamber

    Offcamber Long timer

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    The study takes into account cost over the course of their life so yes it included all their medical costs....it was less in the long run.

    I'll try and find the study but Google is your friend.
    #32
  13. Offcamber

    Offcamber Long timer

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  14. Blue&Yellow

    Blue&Yellow but orange inside...

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    The data is very inconclusive - it doesn't say how many riders there are or how many miles is ridden. Number of accidents is almost meaningless unless you know what percentage of the total motorcycling pool that represents.

    A lot of it has to do with the economy - better economy, more riders on the roads. Worse economy, less riders on the roads. Notice how between 2008-2009 there is dip in the curve - probably a lot of riders lost their jobs, had to sell the bike, didn't ride to work, couldn't afford gas or insurance or what not during that time.
    #34
  15. Foot dragger

    Foot dragger singletracker

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    Exhaust pipe/helmet, its all the same thing,screw the man! Aint nobody telling me how to live my life! Blah,blah,blah,blah

    What was I going to say?
    #35
  16. LuciferMutt

    LuciferMutt Rides slow bike slow

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    How do they know how long anybody has been riding? Is the date of origin listed next to the endorsement on the license?
    #36
  17. wiseblood

    wiseblood Hall Monitor

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    Some interesting research:

    Motorcycle Helmet Use and Head and Facial Injuries
    http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811208.pdf

    ...Helmets reduced the odds of sustaining head injury in both single- and multiple-vehicle crashes. Helmeted motorcyclists in single-vehicle crashes had half the odds of receiving head injury compared to unhelmeted motorcyclists in single-vehicle crashes. In multiplevehicle crashes, helmeted motorcyclists had 67 percent of the odds of sustaining head injury compared to unhelmeted motorcyclists. From the logistic model we estimate that helmets are 48 percent effective at preventing head injuries in single-vehicle crashes and 33 percent effective at preventing head injuries in multiple-vehicle crashes.


    Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
    Q&A: Motorcycles — helmets
    http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.aspx

    From 1968 to 1977, Texas had a universal helmet use law estimated to have saved 650 lives, but the law was amended in 1977 to apply only to riders younger than 18. The weakened law coincided with a 35 percent increase in motorcyclist fatalities. Texas reinstated its helmet law for all motorcyclists in September 1989. The month before the law took effect, the helmet use rate was 41 percent. The rate jumped to 90 percent during the first month of the law and rose to 98 percent by June 1990. Serious injury crashes per registered motorcycle decreased 11 percent. But in September 1997, Texas again weakened its helmet law, requiring helmets only for riders younger than 21. Helmet use in Texas dropped to 66 percent by May 1998, and operator fatalities increased 31 percent in the first full year following the repeal.
    #37
  18. wiseblood

    wiseblood Hall Monitor

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    That's the problem.

    For that matter, how do they know how much health insurance you have? And, without pulling you over, how do they know your age?

    That's why weakened laws correlate to more injuries and fatalities.
    #38
  19. It'sNotTheBike

    It'sNotTheBike Banned

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    Yeah, it's a great idea to ride without a helmet, so
    you can crash and die because you didn't have a helmet on.

    So you die and your organs can be used to help people
    who weren't as stupid and careless with the precious
    gift of life as you were.

    Really this is perfect. The more idiots who don't wear
    helmets, the better.


    The gene pool needs cleaning.


    But one thing is certain : most of the rest
    of the US is not interested in being told what is
    good for them by some sanctimonious tool
    from New York ( you or Bloomberg ). Some people are
    stupid and nanny state bs is not ever going to change
    that. They will ride without helmets and drink large sodas filled with
    sugar and some of them will die as a result. And what exactly is it that
    makes you think it is your business to try to change that ? You're just
    making yourself known as a busybody fool by posting such pointless
    nanny state ideas. Your own life must be pathetically sad and empty if this
    is the best thing you can come up with to post on an internet forum.



    .
    #39
  20. bogus

    bogus Been here awhile

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    DARWINISM ! Keeps idiots from procreating.:lol
    #40