Strange engine noise and oil light flickering on idle

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by keener, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Long timer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,068
    Location:
    Accross the pond
    Clogged oil line, faulty oil pump, incorrect oil specification (not another oil thread....), etc... a mix of these....

    Half a liter is the volume between Low and High oil level in the dipstick. Running at low level is not bad. Running below Low level is bad and can cause oil starvation. I try to keep between L / H, but i've noticed at low level my 950 did not make any unusual rattling, but these bikes have a tendency to behave differently on each specimem.... carefull not covering up a problem with a temporary fix such as adding oil.

    Somewhere along the way, KTM superseeded the CCT bolt, with a longer one (+/- >3mm long) that made measuring the distance to the cylinder wall slightly higher than with the original bolts, keeping the distance between 6 and 11 mms, thus rulling out the need to replace camchains.

    Here
    [​IMG]

    My 05 950 had the smaller bolts, your's is a 04....i believe its part 60036008100.

    Precisely!

    From what i've been learning with this great bike, always start from the far simplest, stupidiest simple possibility, and then rule out accordingly until you get to the weirdest, far fetched scenerio ever imagined... And always be ready to stand corrected.
    #21
  2. bloc

    bloc Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Oddometer:
    158
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Thanks for the heads up on that part number.. hadn't seen it before. Will be installing soon.
    #22
  3. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,612
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    half a litter.
    #23
  4. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,612
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Gustavo, I just looked up CCT bolt for my bike , 04, the part number is different. It is 60036008000

    I replaced the cam chain tensioners last winter. I think I can take the front CCT bolt out without taking the tanks off. I will do that, measure and report.

    I am a bit confused here, what does CCT bolt has to do with oil flow?! aren't they controlling the tension on the chains?
    #24
  5. Peanuts

    Peanuts Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,976
    Location:
    Beautiful but often rainy North Yorkshire, UK
    The longer stub on the screw does not control tension on the chain, it controls the parked position of the tensioner.

    The tensioner relaxes when the motor is stood or when oil pressure is low. The longer plug means the fully collapsed tensioner does not leave the camchain so slack that it rattles bad and jumps a tooth.

    What I cant understand is why the longer plug is 4 x the cost of the shorter one.....
    #25
  6. bloc

    bloc Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Oddometer:
    158
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    That's a tax on us forcing KTM to recognize that they did something wrong.
    #26
  7. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Long timer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,068
    Location:
    Accross the pond
    CCT does not affect oil flow. It was related to *bloc* post about changing the camchains due to small value when testing the distance between bolt and cylinder wall when unscrewed at TDC.

    PN 60036008000 was the original part fitted in factory, after that ktm has been producing 60036008100 that is a bit longer, more expensive, but put prevents longer travel of the tensioner thus higher friction. Also it helps regarding the available slack as Peanuts mentioned.
    #27
  8. Peanuts

    Peanuts Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,976
    Location:
    Beautiful but often rainy North Yorkshire, UK
    Of course if one wanted to save money, one could install a 4mm thick spacer in between the old style plug and the tensioner ;)
    #28
  9. kulturide

    kulturide Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Oddometer:
    52
    Location:
    Romania, Eastern-Europe
    if the noise&oil light flicker is on even when the engine is hot, then Gustavo stated the solution on page 1 of this thread
    how do I know this? I had the same issue, did what he did and now I don't have the rattle&the flickering anymore
    I wrote this as a "double check" for this solution
    #29
  10. Pistolero

    Pistolero W. F. O.

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Oddometer:
    714
    Location:
    TN
    What year did they put these longer plugs in? or do you have to buy them and replace in all cases?

    My 990 is a 2008 and has also done the freaky oil light flicker one time when the oil got good and warm and has never done it since.
    #30
  11. Pistolero

    Pistolero W. F. O.

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Oddometer:
    714
    Location:
    TN
    My 08 has the shorter ones in the microfiche... Headed to my KTM dealer tomorrow to see if the part number supplied for the longer one pulls anything up.. I pulled the plug out of my bike and it's the shorter one I'm pretty sure.
    #31
  12. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,631
    Location:
    Main Street, Shedd, Oregon
    Just looked up 60036008100 on dealer net. It is no longer available, there is no application for it. The number 60036008000 is the part for all 950/990's from 2002 to 2012, no upgrades. So, I don't know where that part came from. Doesn't mean it won't be the up graded part tomorrow.
    #32
  13. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Long timer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,068
    Location:
    Accross the pond
    Lets not mix things up!

    The longer bolt, does not affect oil pressure, it is just a way to reduce the clickety-clackity-clack we sometimes hear our timing chain. It puts the tensioner under higher pressure against the timing chain rail

    dunno when it was introduced, but at least in my 950 it made one heck of a difference in my quest to silence down that can of nails that the 950 engine was sounding.

    Part 60036008100 is available, at least in Europe as you can see from the link below.

    http://www.ktm-versand.de/product_info.php/language/en/info/p624781_VERSCHLUSSSCHRAUBE-M16X1-5.html

    Odly enough price has increased by 70% since last time i bought it a few months ago. It was 15ish euro, now it's 26ish...

    For the oil pressure issue, i replaced the piston+spring on the oil pressure valve due to excessive scoring in the piston. Some early bikes had the piston replaced under warranty too.

    There's also a complete housing of the oil pressure valve PN 60038010133, that is sealed and suposedly better design to avoid early wear.

    :1drink
    #33
  14. OneDay

    OneDay Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Oddometer:
    42
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I'm following this tread with interest as mine has similar symptoms. It only happens after then engine is hot and I start the bike after having stopped for less than 5-10 minutes. At idle it's noisy and the oil light flickers but stops as soon as I rev it a bit and get going. If the bike is cold or has been sitting for more than 10 minutes, I don't see the flicker (mine is an 2004 btw).

    I always had an hunch it's the oil pump that's the issue. In the previous post, I see the part number 60038010133 (which is a replacement for 60038010000). It's not too expensive so I'm willing to give it a try. My question, do I need to also buy the spring and piston or does it come with it?

    THanks,
    Mike
    #34
  15. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Long timer

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,068
    Location:
    Accross the pond
    No, it is a complete set with piston and spring. Actually this part it's sealed and you can't even take piston out to verify scoring, neither the spring to check its length.
    #35
  16. bloc

    bloc Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Oddometer:
    158
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Just to clarify, you can take the piston and spring out, but it requires removing the whole assembly, not just a c-clip like the older version.

    As I said, that upgraded part fixed the flickering oil light on my 04, and was probably the biggest contributor to my lack of timing chain noise now. Still rattles just a little when I start it until the CCTs pump up, but that now happens WAY faster than it did before.
    #36
  17. OneDay

    OneDay Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Oddometer:
    42
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    That's good info. Personally, I'm going to give this new part a try. I hope for the OP that he can fix the issue on his.

    Cheers
    #37
  18. Swatch

    Swatch Adventurer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Oddometer:
    39
    Location:
    Chambly, Quebec
    I had the same problem on my 2004.
    I replaced:
    1st: tensioners (helped, but not perfect) at 70k km.

    2st: Oil bypass valve assembly + Timing chains + Timing chains guides + Amsoil 20W50 oil at 80k km.
    Result: noise disappeared.

    Now the bike have 123k km, still quiet.


    I also think that the oil temp is a problem. No oil cooler on those bikes...
    #38
  19. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,612
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Since I added oil I have not heard that noise again and the light never came on. I was surprised because I only added half a litre.

    Worth mentioning that I have replaced both cam chain tensioners about 5 months ago. That reduced the cam chain noise.

    I PMed Gustavo asking what heck is this oil pressure value and he generously replied with some useful info that I thought I share here for the records:

    "The pressure valve i'm reffering to is located below/behind clutch drum and regulates oil pressure until 3,5 bar, after that the valve opens and the excessive pressure is released. Otherwise you'd have very high oil pressure and that can damage gaskets.

    The part i replaced is the piston, part 42 of the link below, it was badly scored. There's a complete pressure valve assembly available PN 60038010133 (assembly + piston plus spring, washer and circlip), instead of replacing just the piston, or the spring (the spring gets weak too!) These parts are quite cheap, but they can be hard to get to if you're not using the 950 service manual


    http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/model...ystem#p_752817
    "
    #39
  20. bloc

    bloc Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Oddometer:
    158
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    This thread has about as much info and pics as you could hope to find on the subject. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714221

    The only thing I'd add is to dress the groove on the end of the oil pump shaft with a small file before removing the housing. Mine had a very slight ridge, making the housing difficult to get off the shaft.

    This was only made more tricky by the inner "star" part of the pump sticking to the housing as I pulled it off.. allowing its locating dowel to slide out of its slot in the back of the star. This meant that I couldn't slide the housing back in to dress the ridge.

    Ended up having to put quite a bit of pulling force on the housing to get it over the slight ridge. As far as I can tell this isn't an issue, as the inner dowel (for the suction pump "star") keeps the shaft from pulling out.. but it is something that is preventable.

    Edit: one more thing.. I had good oring picks like in that writeup, but found a strong parts-retrieval-magnet far more useful for removing the needle bearing cage inside the clutch basket.
    #40