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Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by ElMartillo, Oct 21, 2012.
Any notion of which adhesive I should be using? Loctite? Epoxy? Elmer's glue?
Affix rotor (5) of Hall-effect gate with
adhesive to the Poly-V belt pulley (3).
Adhesive: .....Loctite instant adhesive or equivalent
"rapid firing of injectors"
You mean that you hear a relay chattering?
Start at the battery. Clean/tighten terminals. The ground wire to the engine is a little tough to reach but that should be checked. Hopefully one of these is the culprit. Try supplying a temporary alternate ground pathway from the batt grond to a solid frame/engine ground.
On the 11xx you can (carefully) by-pass the ss switch and ignition sw sub harness then the kill switch. Those are common failure points. Swap the relays. Check the wire harness over. After that check the 02 heater wire. Beezer was more specific in telling you to unplug it along with the purge valve (located under the porter).
Chances are good that one of the above will resolve the problem. In the off chance that it doesn't there are other steps that an auto electric guy will take. Depending on your skills we can walk you through those. Because of the risk of frying the wiring harness I won't delve in to these just yet.
Regarding fuel pump relay getting power from key through the kill switch: Beezer is that just the relay coil? I don't have the 1150 schematic handy. I can say that I've had a fuel pump run continuously from a seized relay on a 2002 and I thought that was with the key off. That would imply that
only the relay coil is key and switch controlled which is typical.
No, I mean the injectors were "clicking" away and doing what they do which is emitting an mist of fuel with each click. At least the one injector I pulled was doing that, and I assumed the other was doing the same thing as it "clicked" rapidly. They both appeared to be firing simultaneously. A relay may have been chattering at the same time, but honestly I wasn't paying attention.
In an attempt to isolate the problem I switched relays around. This did not make any difference. I do not believe any of them are faulty. I also pulled every fuse and none of them are burned.
I appreciate all the input, if my ignition switch discovery doesn't seem to solve the problem I'll definately ask you guys for some clarification of terminology and procedure, as auto/moto electrics are not my forté, to put it mildly.
Please answer the questions that we already put to you. What are your observations on the dash, with the RID?
Have you cleaned the battery terminals? Provided an alternate ground path from battery to the chassis? What is the battery voltage?
With this "rapid fire" is the fuel pump cycling on and off?
The Motronic has to see a pulsing input from the HES to fire the injectors as far as I am aware. Normal operation of the fuel pump is one short burst with each on/off ignition cycle. If you switch on but do not start the engine there is no further activity from the pump.
I do not think that the initial pump priming is accompanied by an injector pulse.
If the ignition power is intermittent because of a loose ground, bad ignition or kill switch then the fuel pump prime might repeat.
You have several suggestions to follow. Please do those first and report your observations before we move ahead.
If the crank is stationary I do not see how the injectors can receive a pulse from the ecu. Is anyone aware of Motronic firing even one pulse to injectors at power up if the crank has not moved?
Restated: the pump will power up briefly (a second or two) each time the ignition is switched on, even with crank stationary. If you repeatedly cycle the kill switch on-off-on the pump prime repeats.
Very few Motronic ecu fail catastrophically. I have never heard of one failing in this manner which allows repeated injector firing. I likely have hearing loss because I've never heard any noise from my injectors, then again either the starter is cranking or the engine is running when injectors ore powering.
Vintagerider, I'm happy to answer your questions, but understand the problem is intermittent. I haven't been able to duplicate the symptoms since I took apart the ignition switch, found the loose spring and reassembled/reinstalled.
I don't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary with the dash lights or RID while the symptoms were occuring.
I haven't cleaned the battery terminals, though I believe to have good contacts. I have not provided any other ground path from the battery, nor have I measured the battery voltage. The battery is relatively new.
Yes, the fuel pump would go through it's "start up" cycle repeatedly while the injectors were clicking away.
I believe you are correct, and that's what baffled me. It's not like the power was simply coming on and off repeatedly, although the fuel pump was cycling again and again, the injectors were firing. This does not happen during normal power-up.
My feeling is that if it was the HES, or more likely it's wiring is affected by the heat, or if water had gotten into and around a group of poorly insulated wires, that might send a false signal that the crank is in a position it is not. Possibly repeatedly.
Some other conditions observed prior to the problem that may or may not be related:
I had observed an overnight battery drain even after installing a new battery. I got into the habit of plugging the battery into a charger overnight, postponing any diagnostics (as I mentioned earlier, electrics are not my area of knowledge, expertise or interest).
The day before the initial event, the RID was found to be frozen in a reading from the previous day. Temperature, time and fuel level was in a state of suspended animation. I remember this had happened previously but not recently. To remedy, I simply disconnected the negative battery terminal for several seconds, then reconnected. The RID seemed to have reset itself. At the time I attributed this to the battery drain issue.
I've been having a problem with the ABS. Needs to be reset once a day, which I don't do as I think the ABS is BS, and if I rely on it I feel I don't know how to use my brakes. The first couple of times it goes through it's cycle it's fine, but the third or so time it ends with a much louder "clunk", and I notice the ABS lights are flashing alternately. For whatever reason, I didn't look into it and again attributed this problem to a weak battery.
Maybe some of this info helps, I do want to get to the bottom of what's going on with the bike, and I would like to fix the battery-drain and ABS issues. I wonder if the ignition switch condition could have contributed to the battery drain? I didn't charge the battery overnight last night and it started up just fine today, although the ABS is still malfunctioning in the manner described above. Hmmm....
This seems to be a path worth following, what could cause a false signal for the injectors to fire in the manner I described?
Please follow each step of the advice -already given- starting with battery terminal cleaning/tightening. This means effectively cleaning the wires and batt terminals until they are shinny. Post the battery voltage that you find over-night before starting out, without charging. If the engine cranks, post the cranking voltage.
If you don't have a decent digital multi-meter then get one. You may be annoyed or un-interested in electrical but that is part of riding. At least you are home where you can get help. I think that you can resolve this if you want to, otherwise be prepared for lengthy delays and high repair bill. It is a mistake to assume things like "battery is new therefore it must be o.k." 90% of the time the fault is right in the battery or terminals.
Not mentioned yet: Disconnect every after-market wired device including all after-market connections to the original harness. If you have any aux lighting, GPS, radar, whatever, disconnect it all. Disconnect any HID lamps and ballasts. Pull the starter cover and unplug the convenience outlet. Inspect the outlet for a salt bridge.
The ignition switch harness can be disconnected (un-plugged) from the under the tank. It is possible to jumper the mc without the ignition switch. Alternately you can buy a replacement or properly test and repair the one you have.
If the fuel pump cycling re-occurs then note the condition of RID and dash indicators while in event.
If you do all the things listed in this thread so far then the problem will likely resolve. Do not skip things because they seem un-important.
You should remove the tank to check the harness, especially where it passes under the battery tray as already mentioned. See the sharp edge impacting the harness? Clip the wire ties. This will allow you to flex the harness.
Thanks for all your interest and help. I am flying to the east coast tomorrow for one month so I won't be able to continue the diagnostics until I return. I will check and make note of the battery and cranking voltage (by this I assume you mean the voltage showing while cranking the motor to start) in the morning.
I do have a good multimeter, and I'm not annoyed by electrical work, just very unfamiliar.
I've been riding for over 29 years and have only owned one new bike out of at least eleven motorcycles I have had in that time. I have always performed my own maintenance, obviously including some electrical work among a lot of mechanical work. I have crossed the US on this bike 4 times, ridden motorcycles through 44 United States, Canada and 14 European countries. Two of my current and running bikes are restorations I have completed on early 1960s Hondas. This should give you a good idea that I know what motorcycle ownership entails.
I make no assumptions, I'm confident in my abilities and I'm honest about my limitations.
I am also eager to increase my knowledge and I appreciate you helping me with this issue.
Thing is, as it stands, the bike seems to be doing well besides what I believe might be a battery drain of some sort. I'll measure the voltage in the morning and let you know what I find.
I will check the wiring harness near the battery tray as you describe, and if the event occurs again I will make note of as much as I can, including what the dashboard lights and RID are doing, and if I notice any relays doing anything related.
Again, I appreciate it, and thank you!
Voltage last night when I disconnected battery charger: 14.03 VDC
Voltage this morning: 12.83 VDC
Voltage while cranking the motor (approx): 9 VDC
Let me know if this is in the range of normal.
I'll check voltage again this afternoon, but after that any other diagnostics will have to wait until the end of November.
The measured 9V during cranking is somewhat on the low side.
On your problem, one of the classic symptoms associated with HES failure is the rpm on your dash going haywire, ie bouncing up and down. HES failure is usually the wires shorting, this can result in having more switching than one per revolution.
Thank you for addressing this. I don't recall the tachometer doing anything strange during the original failure. I do still believe the HES wiring could be the cause of the problem.
I do believe the battery drain issue is coincidental, unless it can be attributed to a poor connection or mis-connection in the ignition switch AND the original symptom of the injectors misfiring can also be attributed to the same.
If the battery stops draining quickly and the symptoms of the original event do not recur after every effort to duplicate the symptoms I will have to assume my ignition switch was at fault.
I will continue to monitor the battery, and take short rides on the bike trying to duplicate the symptoms.
So far, since my ignition switch discovery, I have repeatedly and successfully started and ridden the bike with no return of the problem. The only thing I haven't done is wash it again, which I will do when I return in 1 month in an attempt to duplicate all circumstances surrounding the original event.
Thanks again to all for the help!
I agree, that's low. I'm surprised you didn't get an ABS fail on start-up.
Most battery mfg's publish data and OCV tables for their batteries like the one above. You didn't mention your OCV or temperature so can not say your SOC. Cranking 9.0 vdc indicates starter, wiring or battery not optimum.
It seems like your initial issue of pump re-priming in rapid succession has resolved since your r-r the ignition switch. If it re-occurs then post your observations and any diagnostic steps you've taken. If this were my mc then I would not be replacing HES at this time.
When I get back I'll check all connections, and the charge output from the alternator. I will update at that time.
Thanks again to all for the help!
OK, got back in town two days ago.
When I got home I took the bike off the charger. Started it up, let it warm up. No signs of the original problem. Checked voltage after: 12.99 volts.
Next morning, no battery charger for at least 8 hours: 12.96 volts. Took her out for a ride later in the day. No signs of the original symptoms. No battery charger overnight.
Raining today so I thought it would be a good test to see if water has anything to do with the original symptoms. Checked battery voltage before ride: 12.93 volts. When cranking, voltage reads approximately 9+/- volts. Near 14 while bike was warming up. Ran fine. Stopped and started 3 times within 1.5 hours no problem, except the ABS wouldn't engage after the 2nd startup (alternately blinking lights).
Battery voltage after ride: approximately 13.0.
At this point I need to assume my injector-misfiring symptom was related to the ignition switch issue (I'd like to hear Beezer's opinion on this). I may still have a weak battery; although it is fairly new the cranking amps reading is low.