suspension and terrian

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by johnwesley, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    I'm still planning for a sidecar and trying to learn as much as possible. the one thing I have learned is most people do things different. I like my bikes tall with lots of travel. The sporty I built has a 37" seat height and 10.5 " of rear travel with 12" up front. Now if I was to use that bike as a tug would it need a long travel sidecar suspension?


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    I'm having a hard time getting my head around a off-road hack with such a difference in travel on just the one wheel. After reading several build threads it seems the BMW GS ADV is a popular bike, but even it has 8-9 inches of travel and then most are coupled to a car with 3-4" of travel if that. How does that work from a balanced suspension stand point?


    Maybe I am expecting the rig to do more than they are able. What type of travel is really possible on a hack?

    is this type of terrain within the limits of a well built rig?
    Is the below within the realm of sidecardom?

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    I can borrow a rig but not to take off-road and diffently not to abuse as if I owned it :deal


    help one confused soul get a grip on reality
    #1
  2. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    Here watch this:

    <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Mh0eu8Guj7w" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>
    #2
  3. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    good video, i would bet their rigs weighs about what a typical ADV sidecar weighs. I did notice that they used conventional forks and not LL.



    With all of the comments on this :ear I figure I should lower my sights to more honda accord type of terrain.

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  4. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    Think about this.

    They have no use for a leading link. Their rigs are featherweights. They have a VERY narrow track. They aren't ridden on road at 70 + mph, nor Deals Gap.


    Even with everything you've done to your suzuki trail rig, it still wont go 'everywhere'. Lots of places, yes, but not everywhere. Now stop and ask yourself, as capable as that 410/413 is, would you want to do a lot of road miles to get to a trail with it ?

    Ask Hog Wild, as at this level he's the only one that would have valid input as to what you want to achieve.


    <a href="<iframe width=" 640"="" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kTKBUQlA4Xw?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="">">"><a href="<iframe width=" 640"="" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/yZfibDVmQOs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/yZfibDVmQOs" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>
    #4
  5. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    hate to be ignorant but what does the orange text above mean? remember i'm a newbie:norton
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  6. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    The question is do you want a sidehack or a sidecar?

    On your last 3 pics of graded roads, I would not hesitate in taking my 2007 BMW R1200GSA with a Dauntless M72D on any of them and prolly cruz along at 30 to 40 mph. I did upgrade all three shocks to Works Performance with reservoirs to handle the extra heat build up for long rough roads. All of that being said, with the lack of an anti-swaybar my rig almost has too much travel and I do get a pretty good amount of roll when going into turns before it takes a set. It is something that requires me to stay on my toes if I'm going lickity split.
    #6
  7. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    how much travel does the sidecar have?

    being a newbie what is the diff between a hack and a car?
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  8. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    Suzuki SJ 410/413.

    410's had a 1000 and the 413's had a 1.3 litre motor.



    Bit hard to tell what yours may have started as. Is that thing 4 linked at the rear ? I see a SOA and shackle reversal at the front ( unless it is sitting on a 'yoda frame ).



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    #8
  9. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    The inmate that bought my harley outfit has a driveway worse than the roads pictured, as well as creek crossings thrown in for good measure.


    .
    #9
  10. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    "0" my mind was in Hack world. that is a 413 on a yoda frame and a 3.8l v6 mated to a TH350 and yota cases doubled. the rear is a wish bone with panhard dailed in to 120 pecent anti squat and runing 18" travel fox "air" shocks. Its a beast and will climb till it flips :eek1
    #10
  11. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    surely not worse than the 1st 3 pics. now the last 3 are not anywhere close to as bad as my pops drive and he has a creek crossing too. He drives his road glide up the drive as well as the 100 anniversary harley sidecar.

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    #11
  12. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    One needs to do allot of home work guys have done the TAT with HD sidecar rigs http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=910213&page=8
    You can do or go wherever you want if you have enough money and patience.
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    With all due respect which isn't much coming from me, this thread is rapidly descending into BS. It would be possible to build a long travel sidecar rig, but who really wants or needs a sidecar rock crawler.
    The Hog Wild guys have shown whats possible if you want to throw some money at a project but what really is practical ? http://www.hogwildracing.com/bike.shtml

    Oh and how can one not include Raphael and the Ray Hyde folks
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  13. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    i've done the TAT and its as technical as the pics I posted. If you take the route suggestions for heavy bikes its a cake walk, at least on a klr. There are a few alternative for lite DS, in Colorado that could be tuff.

    this is the normal TAT roads.


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    here is the most technical terrain I remember on the TAT most go around this section.

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    I will say doing the TAT is fun :deal I loved it but its not that bad of a route for a mild DS. If I had it to do over again there are sections i'd just slab it on cause your just running close to a main road and just on a gravel road to say you did it. no better scenery and taking longer to get to the nice stuff. Mainly the middle of Oklahoma to New Mexico. I love the change from NM through Colorado and then into Utah. there is just something special about the landscape change.
    #13
  14. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    that really is a good question. If I had experience then there would be no need for the question.

    Thanks for the link to Hog's build. What is practical? that is something that would be good to know. It may be that non of the normal rigs are really that much better than the Harley set up I know about :dunno are the other rigs like Claude a small bit better or a huge leap ???

    I'm not in a place where I have to have one or quit riding.

    This is a normal question that I have gotten on the rock crawler I built also on the KLR I modded and then again on the sportster. I like them all and had a blast on them. Now this off set wheel sidecar thing may not work with much travel, that is the reason for the questions in the first post. Fair questions too if one understands the benefits of balanced suspension. I have seen it in all types of vehicles and it pays big in the ability of any two or four wheel machine to function. But now we have 3 wheels in two tracks and none of them line up so it may throw conventional wisdom about suspension out the window.

    Maybe a easier question to swallow would be If I have a sidecar with 4" of travel should I stick with a tug that also was short on travel sat in the 4-6" range because they would work better as a unit? same question different twist.
    #14
  15. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    How about you decide where your going to go and how much trouble you want to deal with to get there, then call Claude, 3 wheels 2 tracks are really unbalanced and then there's the monkey moving around. The Europeans have a different take on it yet :http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=779654&highlight=smiling+swordfish
    DMC built s couple rigs for Mikepa and he apparently busted allot of expensive shock absorbers, I have no idea how he did it. If I had allot of money to build a rig, I'd got to Europe get a Mobec chassis with duodrive :http://mobec-international.com/index.php
    Then have Claude built a aluminum body and pick up a single sided leading link front while I was there. Side Effects in Canada has built some very cool Triumph based rigs all it takes is time and money.DB
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  16. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    Everything comes back to what you are comfortable with ... or regard as , 'normal'.

    I wouldn't think twice about riding a harley through that, chair or no chair.



    You're used to rock crawling so you know it's about, pick your line and know the rigs limits.

    This will not change just because it is a sidecar.




    Current build has 2 1/2 on the chair ... on a rising rate geometry ( which also includes a manual ride height adjuster ) and I run a coil over designed for a car.

    If I was going to run the Baja at 100 + mph, I'd go with a tad more travel ... and a different bike :lol3



    .
    #16
  17. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    thanks for the insight that clicks in my head. It's always about the line and the ability to see it. I use to teach off-road riding before my current Job and the line is import there its just easier to find. Of course the track schools also worked on the lines and how they changed based on traffic and over taking.

    Yea good thoughts, a nice boost of confidence that I am going the right direction.


    DaveBig: I am talking with Claude and he is working out some options, just airing out thoughts here without blowing up someones phone :kboom

    I'm pretty sure I'll click with the rig I mean it has a motor whats not to like :lol3


    the tiger is more "normal" with the suspension travel so it may be a better tug. the sporty is a little bit more out there :wink:
    #17
  18. cleatusj

    cleatusj Dirt floor engineer

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    John, I have very little travel on the front and sidecar and I run what you showed as normal TAT roads at 60-80 mph but a lot of these are not as well groomed. I do have to check bolts for tightness after every 100-200 mile day.

    The old body.
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    The new body.
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    #18
  19. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    yea, but you have a Guzzi. Thats like saying sure you can do it, I saw superman do it once :D

    I love the goose. I sold my last one and have regretted it ever since. It was a SPIII



    what is that in the left side of the pic? a T3 maybe with LL
    #19
  20. cleatusj

    cleatusj Dirt floor engineer

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    '76 Convert. The build thread link is in my sig. at the bottom.
    #20