suspension and terrian

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by johnwesley, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    Mine is a trailing arm, as are all my builds. The shock is not directly mounted to the arm and the ride height bell crank is horizontally below parallel with the frame.

    Angled down ... will also reduce wheel lead when compressing, which may or may not come into play halfway 'round a sweeper as the COG shifts.

    The smoothness of the ride is dependent on the damping of the shock. The way mine is set up it introduces a rising rate. The shock angle also contributes its own rising rate so they compliment each other while still soaking up small and large bumps. * edit, plus my roll and instant centers are further forward due to the design.

    ... and you thought this was gonna be simple :lol3



    Pic's taken from my current build thread. If I want more travel from the chair suspension I only need to change one thing.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #41
  2. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    John,
    I agree with the trailing arm setup. If you want to discuss brakes in more detail feel free to call. Floating calipers can be done on a sidecar swingarm just as they are on a leading link. This can segregate the braking and the suspension which can technically be a plus. However....even though this type of thing is doable and even though the theory is real we must wonder if doing it is really worth the effort. Sidecar suspensions can be pretty wold if one wishes to get into it but it is questionable if th effort is a big enough payoff to do some of these things.
    Heck going to a double a frame with all the stuff that it can be made to do even sounds good.
    But,,,,, in the real world under 99 percent of the circumstances a properly angled trailing arm with a properly mounted shock and a swaybar that works is not all that bad.
    If you really want to go nuts we can head down that road with you though ...lol.
    #42
  3. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    These types of charts are good but many factors still come into play. We are running torsion arms of varied lengths on swingarms of varied lengths with connections points (pick up points) in varied places and connection links on various angles.....so it stands to reason that varied results can be the outcome.
    We also cannot forget that sidecars are non symmetrical vehicles. All of this comes into play to a point.

    Fun huh?
    #43
  4. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    You have a very valid point. That is why you use different length arms and attach your links to take advantage of the leverage at the connection points , both at the swingarm and the arms of the bar:D


    They can be a simple and quite pleasurable thing. But, as owners grow ,so will there expectations of their rigs if they push the envelope.

    It's one of the reasons I enjoy seeing Brock's and your work, Claude. Your new LL to replace the telelever looks very interesting. If you haven't picked it, I enjoy the engineering that goes into a build. I concur with an early statement by you in a reply to John, there is a point of diminishing returns on some of this stuff.


    Have fun.

    .
    #44
  5. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    love the lines on that car. This sounds like building crawler suspension all over again but with an off set wheel and only one tire producing anti-squat. I broke a spool once and just had one wheel pushing and it was not easy to get out, worse than a open diff.

    anyway this does bring many engineering thoughts. If any thing like the crawler world I have seen some rigs that did not work on paper, but man they worked well in rocks :deal
    #45
  6. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    thanks claude, we'll work with the e-mail sent and see where it goes from there, all of this engineering comes at a price :D

    Its free to talk about, untill you cant sleep at night, because you must know if it will work. Now thats what happened to this bike.

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    #46
  7. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    Thank you.




    You're pretty much onto it.


    Some of it does cross over, but in this case it's more about balance between the three wheels as they all perform a different function. Of the three , the chair suspension is the least critical as it mainly comes into play in corners as the weight transfers.


    I think a lot of us here have played the 4x4 if not rock crawler game.

    Compared to crawlers, sidecars are dead simple.
    #47
  8. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    My 4wd adv involved a 72 land cruiser and a 302 chevy muncie 4 spd but there was a 455 olds auto around here also.
    I personally think your over thinking this but that may only because I don't have enough money or room to over think one myself.
    Claude builds great rigs that actually work and the sway bar helps allot, go see him.DB
    #48
  9. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    Don't know much about crawlers, but I've been to watch King of the Hammers several times. Most of the time I play with these guys:

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    Ryan Arciero and Troy Herbst in the # 49 Trophy Truck. Lots of suspension, lots of power, and lots of money!!

    The biggest problem with suspension is you are always compromising something to gain something else. If you trailer your crawler out to play then you can have a great setup for crawling, if you are going to trailer your formula class car to Road Atlanta then you can have a bitch'n set up for road racing. However, you are never going to get a really great set up for either one if you plan to use it on a daily basis, let alone have a good set up for daily use.

    I was just thinking about how well a WRC car would work on 99% of the roads you've shown, the problem is it would be pretty harsh. In 2007 I had the pleasure of being on the VW team when they brought their Dakar Race Touraegs to Mexico for the Baja 500, at the time VW was dominating the Dakar. The idea was to show the world diesel technology in off road racing and also to allow the FIM regulated Dakar to run against the big trophy trucks and Class 1 "buggys". Remember that the Dakar Touraegs only had 10" of travel where the Trophy Trucks have up to 36". At the end of the race Mark Miller's co-driver/navigator Ralph Pitchford complained that he was in terrible pain from the beating the race course had gave him and was cussing Mark for having a much higher pain threshold than he did!

    When thinking about building my rig, I wanted something that I could trust as being stout enough to handle extended periods of dirt road travel, not rock crawling or 4x4 trails, but something that would work as well as a good 2 wd pickup (with a knowledgeable driver) over most logging, forest service roads, or dirt roads in Baja. At the same time I didn't want to beat the shit out of my passenger or equipment. That's why I went with the big 1200 GSA. It has way too much suspension for daily road use but it is "cushy" and comfy for SWMBO.

    I think the only complaint I have with the Beemer is that even after swapping out to a lower geared final drive, first gear is still too tall, and I have to be attentive to not flog the clutch in "technical" spots. You however, get to swap out rear sprockets so that's not an issue.
    #49
  10. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    Good post, seeing how your into baja do you know Larry Ragland ?

    I love the wrc cars with a peice of work that car is.
    #50
  11. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    Yes I know Larry, his wife Kelly, and of course his son Chad. I first "chased" Larry back in 2000 on the Herzog "Vortec" Trailblazer team:

    [​IMG]

    Since then I've been helping him on and off on different teams. Last year at the NORRA Mexican 1000 I was riding with Larry while following the Scoop Vessels BFG Blazer. He knows EVERY rock and bush all the way down Baja!!! Here is the BFG Blazer I helped restore that we were following:

    [​IMG]
    #51
  12. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    I have road with him on the bikes. He use to do the Big Dog event, but the racing has got in the way of that. Very likeable guy

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    #52
  13. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Which is why the 1100/50 BMWs have allot more going to them sidecar wise.DB
    #53
  14. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    He's a really good rider. That's a great pic of him with that big pig in the rocks! Gnarly!! Larry is pretty quite most of the time, kinda hard to get to know. Kelly is drop dead gorgeous and a real sweet hart. His son Chad is a good rider also.
    #54
  15. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad n00balicious

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    OMG!!!! They have sprockets????!!!!!??? I did not know that!!



























    :hide
    #55
  16. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Yeah one on the end of each cam and a couple on a shaft driving them !:D For the 1100/50 final drives there's 31.32.33.34.37/11, and at least three different 6 spd transmissions or the 1150.DB
    #56
  17. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    sometimes you just need a winch :rofl


    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5b1SeBKja_I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    #57
  18. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    just thinking out loud again. If one wants more travel for blasting through the rough terrain and also wants a decent ride on the road, then why not bump stop the sway bar?


    with the torsion bar set up with splined arms one could control the amount of movement with a bump stop set up on the splined arm where it connects to the sidecar swing arm.

    [​IMG]

    this style bump stop is progressive and would not be harsh, and could be set up to limit travel to best suit the road. With a quick disconnect sway bar then you would have full travel for off-road running in just moments.


    of course if your pockets are full just use nitrogen bump stops and dial in the progressive nature of the stop with oil and pressure
    What say ye
    #58
  19. FR700

    FR700 Banned

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    ... 2 cents ... looking at the above pic', I really wouldn't like to be on a heavy rig. That includes your Tiger.


    Build something cheap and cheerful , AKA very simple. Ride it. Then decide what its perceived shortcomings and strong points are.

    Build another one.

    Ride, rinse, repeat.


    If you want me to recommend a starting point, KLR with a velorex.


    .
    #59
  20. johnwesley

    johnwesley wanta be

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    we'll have to check into that. Of course this guy was on a dr650. Can you say ooops :rofl

    [​IMG]


    so this for a tug with 10" of clearance under the bike

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    this one has 13" of clearance and good torque

    [​IMG]


    yea I know too many pics. I just can help myself :D
    #60