Taller 5th in a 33/11

Discussion in 'Airheads' started by ME 109, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    Oh, when I did this I used the baking it in the oven to harden the epoxy method. Don't like that method anymore. I will measure the next time.

    I think maybe you take the measurement three times at each hole and average the results?
    #41
  2. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    Good theory, but I measure over ten thou difference on one of the holes.
    #42
  3. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    No luck finding a shim measuring plate in Aus, not Munich or Moto Hansa. Not even Motobins that I can see. :huh
    I must be some sort of pioneer.
    #43
  4. supershaft

    supershaft because I can

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    Yea, the cover plate's bearing bosses vary in depth around the boss. I just roughly average my findings. Like I said, it's a bhit of a guessing game no matter what.
    #44
  5. Big Bamboo

    Big Bamboo Aircooled & Sunbaked

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    #45
  6. ontic

    ontic

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    Hey Jeff, I believe R.G. might have had a measuring plate available. Maybe not actually his, but possibly someone to borrow it from. Worth a call if you haven't already.
    #46
  7. boxerboy81

    boxerboy81 Stay Horizontal

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    Come to think of it, RG had a bloke up in the Dandenongs doing gearboxs for him, but they had a falling out I think. He might have one?
    #47
  8. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    Haven't tried RG but I'll give him a go. Charlie got a box from him.........not overly impressed.

    I can't see how guess work can come into play when we are shooting for two thou / .05mm clearance.
    That is incredibly close to no clearance. If we get no clearance , we're shot.

    A known absolutely flat and parallel shim plate, with bearings fully seated in the front pockets, is the only way to be really sure of an accurate measure imo.

    Straight edges across the rear of the tranny will give an estimate, but unless the rear bearing is perfectly in line with the front bearing, variations will occur.

    Without doubt tho', there will be people who have developed a system that has been proven time and again, without needing a shim plate. That isn't me.

    Unless I source a 'known absolutely flat and parallel shim plate' my best bet will be to be absolutely sure of the thickness of the 'not parallel' donor rear cover plate (in my possession) at one point for each bearing hole, and be done with it.

    I have a reputation to......improve on.
    #48
  9. Airhead Wrangler

    Airhead Wrangler Long timer

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    Know any machinists?

    [​IMG]
    #49
  10. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    Thanks AW, I have that drawing as I've used Joergs pages to do my tranny rebuild.
    I do know a very good machine shop. I worked there several years ago. They certainly have all the gear.
    Only thing stopping me is knowing that a one off job like this would be quite expensive. Then again, so will getting the tranny wrong.

    I'd better take the drawing along to them for a price.
    #50
  11. Airhead Wrangler

    Airhead Wrangler Long timer

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    Just an idea - you could get the plate profile and holes cut by any waterjet cutting shop cheaply enough to close enough tolerances and then have a machine shop fly cut both faces parallel. That would probably reduce your costs considerably.
    #51
  12. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    I've been thinking, usually not such a good idea. But do you think that maybe the part you are having trouble with is somehow related to it being the input shaft? The front bearing on this shaft is not seated the same way as the others. The collar of the inner bearing race against the bearing is a different standard than the outer races of the other bearings?

    I've been thinking, like I said, but I can't make any magic from this.

    Does this somehow have bearing on the variation?
    #52
  13. grumpyoldbstrd

    grumpyoldbstrd Been here awhile

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    ME 109,
    I've got an OEM plate, depth gauges, assorted shims, & have done lots of boxes. Located in Melbourne, but will not lend tools. If you can get it to my joint, I'll either do it for you or show you how for a BBBB (Big Bastard Bottle of Bundy). PM me for a contact number.
    Cheers,
    GOB
    #53
  14. mark1305

    mark1305 Old Enough To Know Better

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    There is one other way to do it without a shim plate. I made a shim plate to that drawing, but my mill let me down and i couldn't get parallel faces on the plate. Check out my thread on a Tale of Two Transmissions. Specifically start at post # 38 i believe to see the depth gauge bridge i machined after the plate job failed. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435511&page=3

    Many thousand miles later and the transmission still shifts better and is happier than the original box.

    Feel free to PM with any questions.
    #54
  15. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    Gidday you blokes, thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

    Disston, the trouble I'm having is that the donor cover that has been machined for the job of shim measuring is not machined parallel.......but all hope is not lost there.

    I took the shim plate drawing to a well set up machine shop and found my assumptions to be correct.....250-300 bucks.
    But that was supplying perfectly parallel plate and done to the drawing. Get any quantity produced and the cost would plummet.

    Grumpy, that's a mighty fine offer. Thank you. However my chances of getting to Melbourne in the coming weeks are basically nil.
    And the only way to possess and maintain quality tools is........don't lend them.

    Mark, great thread! I read through from post 38 and found plenty of good info. Regarding the measuring bridge, I'll be pushing it uphill to get it made for a reasonable price too.

    At this stage, my thoughts are that I have a donor cover. It does perfectly locate the bearings, which greatly reduces the likelihood of obtaining an incorrect measurement through shaft misalignment.
    I think that if the shafts are perfectly aligned, I only need one measurement from one point of the cover at each hole.
    I can take the cover to the machine shop mentioned earlier and get them to give an exact measurement at 'one point'
    at each bearing hole, and go from there.

    The depth of the bearing pockets on my tranny cover (the cover that will go back on the tranny) individually measure within 1 thou, so that part of the math is easy.

    Thanks again chaps for the assistance.
    #55
  16. ontic

    ontic

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    Considering you are already kinda veering from the optimum solution... it might be worth trying some version of the squashed soldering wire approach as well as a sort of belt and suspenders approach?
    I was thinking some sort of two part setting putty might be a good option instead of the soldering wire.
    Some builders bog set to slow cure thickened with some flour or something?
    #56
  17. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    Yeah Hans, I think the optimum solution would be to go and see Grumpy!

    I've though about the concept of using a crushable media (solder) to determine a measurement.
    I've also thought that it would be like trying to measure something on a trampoline.
    I have some 1mm diametre solder that I trialled this morning using a bearing to push down on the solder. The imprint of the outer race on the solder is approx 3mm wide, which is enough to measure.
    The force required to produce said indentation on the solder may, or may not be replicated by torquing the cover screws

    Thing is, the solder diametre needs to be close to the ideal shim thickness so as to not bow the tranny cover when the screws are torqued down.

    I think that your setting putty idea has far more merit than the solder because it offers no resistance to the tranny cover and offers a far more accurate real world measurement. (besides a shim plate 'course)
    What type of putty, and how one goes about utilizing it is another story.

    I realise that the end play required is less than the thickness of a fly shit.
    And, I'm trying very hard to stay away from my usual ideal of.....who gives a shit.:D
    #57
  18. disston

    disston ShadeTreeExpert

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    When you replace the cover it needs to be fairly hot so it slips over the bearing races with out pounding. I was doing the epoxy measuring method and forgot this piece of advice. I got the cover on by banging with a rubber mallet. I baked it in an oven per directions and removed the cover. There was Zero clearance for the input shaft shown by the lack of epoxy at the input bearing. I thought this odd but put my trans together this way and later realized the error of my thoughts. By banging the cover on the input is able to bounce up and down. It is not held the same way as the other shafts, I got measurements on the other two shafts. I got Zero on the input. I used that trans for 6 months but it never worked right. So I still have it and plan to fix this someday but I am using another trans right now.

    The epoxy that I was given to do this was not a two part item. It was set by heat. I didn't like this anyway. The finished epoxy was not as hard as steel, it was difficult to measure because it could bend a little.

    I've heard that solder works better but never tried it.
    #58
  19. ME 109

    ME 109 Long timer

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    The cover definitely needs to slip on easily if measuring shim thickness with solder.
    I would think that the cover needs to be re-heated after torquing the cover screws so as to settle the dust, so to speak.
    Re-heating the cover may transfer heat to the solder and make it yield easily.

    Heating/re-heating the cover might also negate any measurements obtained.

    My kingdom for a known good shim plate!

    That's not a bad deal actually.:1drink
    #59
  20. mendoje

    mendoje Been here awhile

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    Can Plastigage be used for this application? Its available in various string diameters, for measureing crankshaft and connecting rod bearing clearances from 0.001 to 0.020 inches. But that's also the issue, the measuring gage it comes with is calibrated to measure bearing clearance, not an offset clearance. But it would be easy enough to build a test rig with known clearances, then crush some Plastigage and compare the gage to the actual offset.

    You should be abe to get Plastigage almost anywhere, including your local neighborhood auto repair store.
    http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductId=1109
    #60