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Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by Dorsicano, Feb 3, 2011.
In Belgium it's allowed for any worker using a motorbike to commute.
ah, Belgium, makes sense! Thanks!
Other rider involved was Alun Davies from adventurebikerider.com. Sounds like he crashed while trying to avoid Kevin's crash. Apparently, very dusty conditions made it difficult to avoid the incident. Alun has been offline other than to say he is back in the UK now and recovering.
Maybe we'll get the details someday, but I've certainly been off road with a big group and huge dust clouds obscuring sight lines. Almost anything can happen. Leads me to believe more and more that whatever happened, it will turn out not to be bike related.
It is a common misconception that "everything emissions related" is covered under the 80K emissions warranty. In actuality, each car has a specific list of things that are covered and they're generally only the big ticket items (cats, ECU, etc.) and a few sensors. Anything maintenance-related is not covered.
How necessary are the electronic suspension and riding modes? Serious Q, I'm currently riding a 2006 vfr, which has abs only.
The electronic / riding modes are a couple of thousand onto the base price, the dynamic package is 2,800 on base price in Ireland.
For a bike which makes 120 hp, I think?, is traction control / rain mode a necessity? I've never owned a bike with any riding modes or electronic suspension adjustments and would genuinely like to know if inmates think they are worth paying for?
I'm going to buy either the bmw 1200 or ktm 1190 and am following both threads here. The Irish motorbike show is on March 1-3, and test rides should be available after that weekend. I know the ktm dealer is only importing the 1190 with the electronic package, I'm not sure if a base bmw will be available or for special order only.
It depends doesn't it. In the case of my bike, it is definitely good to have when you fit knobs. (The tires that is).
If you never fit anything but street tires and they are "sticky" then the torque may not break traction unless you are trying.
However is you are using it as a "all roads bike" it comes in handy, especially on long rides on semi street tires when you don't want to spend 8 hours concentrating hard on marginal surfaces. You let the bike's brains concentrate a bit on that and you look out for the rest.
If you only ride a few hours on dry days on street tires you are getting less "value" I would say.
Given that none of us have ridden the bike I don't think you're going to receive a good answer to your question. Check the numerous reviews that have been published in the last few weeks as that is all we have to go on at this point.
Years of riding without traction control taught me to use the throttle judiciously in slippery conditions so for me it's not a must-have. But I don't mind having it either on the S10, I'm sure it will prove useful offroad.
Well this is both a long AND and old discussion.
Since I ride (and drive) before the era of mainstream electronics, the keyword I think is "necessity". Yes under normal or maybe under MOST conditions a rider (or driver) will normally do whatever is needed in case of emergency. What happens for the few (or even ONE) time that he doesn't? Maybe you are tired when it happens to need "assistance", maybe the surface is loose (when not expected to be loose I mean), maybe you are a bit over your capabilities and you haven't realized, maybe all these.
I consider myself a person that does not panic easily and NORMALLY handles emergencies ok.
Yet, on my Dakar (with the elementary ABS) I happen to still be alive (and my wife), because the ABS saved me.
I won't go into details - except if requested - but I will just say that where it almost happened, a car was already down and while we were trying to catch our breath (because ABS saved us) two more cars almost fell down.
With my 12GS, ABS has assisted me few times, ASC has allowed me to go closer to the edge more safely.
If the safety electronics are ok, then when you feel them working means you did something wrong. If it's a bit wrong you would most probably "fix" it yourself. I used "most probably" and ONE time this doesn't apply, then the money are worth it.
Electronics are good if they are tuned to be "last resort". Usually BMW does this right. This goes for ABS and ASC.
Now for electronic suspension and riding modes, we are not talking about necessities but rather about cool things that make your life easier. That is up to you.
All these said, I think rider training should take place first WITHOUT any electronics assistance. Else there is a possibility that people will start taking it for granted and let the bike make the decisions. This I am against (like you I believe).
Thanks all for the replies.. I'm not against advances in technology, I've seen the introduction of traction control in MotoGP improve corner speed and safety and I have spun up the rear tyre when the roads are very wet or icy (and didn't enjoy it!). Overbanding and white lines on the road can catch you out, as we all know and these are scenarios I could see traction control assisting a rider.
I will take a long test ride and make my mind up then.
The main thing about safety electronics that I cannot stress enough: Yes you are great rider (by "you" I mean everybody)... for the ONE time where your superior expertise is not enough (because there are 100 other variables in the equation), then it's worth it.
Bare in mind that GS is also stressing the "one world" thing. Meaning that maybe you are fine in your country and what you consider "normal", you know what to expect more or less. What happens if you go somewhere "worse". In my country some research has shown that some tarmac parts inside Athens have worse traction than the traction measured in white lines in (I don't remember which country). :) I can imagine this only being worse with the crisis.
Both bikes you are interested in are great (actually for me KTM has always been the ONLY real contender to GS - even if the path they follow is a bit different). Both have electronics btw... The 1190 manages to be uglier than the GS though (something subjective of course) and certainly more things are "conventional" in KTM (great quality conventional) than GS, which can count for you as negative or positive. Since you are coming from a street background, I think you will like GS more.
If these two are your choices, you are already win-win.
(EDIT: Wireless keyboards REALLY suck)
Worth noting that the electronic suspension on the new GS is very different from that on the KTM.
On the GS this time around, it is "active" damping control - the damping reacts in real time to the road surface, as on high-end automobile suspensions. Reads axle acceleration every 5 milliseconds and reacts using solenoid valving that can go from full hard to full soft in 1/100th of a second.
The "modes" on the new GS affect the way a computer controls those solenoid valves. Much more adjustment to road feel available than from conventional dampers, so handy to have the control.
The KTM uses conventional dampers only. Its electronic option is roughly equivalent to the previous BMW ESA, except that the quality of the dampers is likely higher.
Point being, when you pay for electronic adjustment on the Beemer, you get a lot more than adjustment. On the KTM, you get just the adjustment.
I am not intending to say that the Beemer's system is better. KTM seems to have stuck with stuff we are used to that has less to go wrong when you are off the beaten track. Changing springs also will be no issue on the KTM, whereas there has been no word on whether you can do that on a "dynamic" BMW without upsetting the damping control and/or voiding the warranty. The KTM stuff will be rebuildable when it wears out; again no word on the BMW stuff, nor on replacement cost - and there are no aftermarket equivalents.
Good analysis. Thing with KTM is that they "seem" to fight evolution (because they say they believe to good quality proven peripherals) but in the end they always move on (with a delay).
Many 950 owners spit the 990.
I am not saying they are right, because I don't believe it (my bikes are injection based for the last 12 years), I am just stating a fact.
BMW does that too sometimes (and everybody). They react to change "what they use is good and proven" (read: they haven't done the proper R&D and economic analysis on adding this) and in the end market push is enough for them to do it anyway.
I am 100% sure the "next" 1190 KTM WILL have the current GS (and MS12) suspension. By then probably their "version 2" also.
Happens all the time.
And for the part you use it 'professionally' you can deduct if from your taxes. Mine is used for 90% professioal use. I work in a congested area, so I even use it for appointments, even though I can use a car from the office.
And the tax deduction isn't limited to the bike, it concerns all motoring related costs.
My bike saves me 2 hours a day.
The electronics are for people like me. I don't fettle with manual settings, and it adds some easy flexibility. It also allows me to use it in more situations without needing the extra effort. For more experienced drivers it might be useless, but for me it makes for a more relaxing drive.
Let's not confuse safety electronics with "goodies".
Goodies indeed are for people like you (and me).
Safety electronics, I am all in.
Safety and comfort, both for safety. Specially when I ride in the winter and have to leave for work (160km) at 5 am in freezing temperatures.
This I can accept, not the other way round (safety and comfort, both for comfort).
I saw a man on a GSA in Rome last year--he had a metal top box and one side pannier. I don't think his bike could fit through traffic and some of those narrow, Roman streets with both panniers on. I loved seeing that bike strolling the cobblestone streets.
I can only imagine what your GS will look like in / around le Grand Place. Please send pics!
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