The Bivouac (general rallye raid news)

Discussion in 'Racing' started by PackMule, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. BC61

    BC61 Long timer

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    Have an inside scoop to this or just speculation? I thought the same thing as soon as I heard the news. Wouldn’t be surprised. Regardless Marc couldn’t have been to happy with Etienne that day.
  2. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    Hi Bill... :wave

    A little birdy...
  3. KZJohn

    KZJohn Been here awhile

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    You could go full tilt red neck and put a .22 bullet in it's place.
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  4. LocuL

    LocuL Gnarly Infantry

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    I assume you dont like it.

    While the RB become tablets of some sort and not integrating any odometers etc. That won´t do anything to the sport regarding how its done these days. Rider/navers will still have to highlight/work the RB as before. its just a screen now. What IF the RB gets water inside the toilet roll is tot. We can always come up with a lot of IFs. I agree with your comments on the weird ASO decisions. Some weird shit has been done then and now.

    RG would be fun.
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  5. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon Xplorer

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    Next thing you know Honda retires with electrical issues :lol2
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  6. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    :rofl:imaposer:clap
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  7. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    I can see the technical attraction of the tablet/roadbook concept... but to use 21st Century techmology in a retrograde fashion - just to replicate the "low tech" toilet roll solution that has served for nigh on 40 years without major change or drama... it just strikes me as incongruous... I know the riders will still have to colour and can mark up/customise the tablet "book" (in the model that is proposed) - just as they do with the paper version... and that the ICO/trip function is merely incorporated to the screen... but (really) why? It is comparable to using a computer screen to replicate an abacus... it's so retro-ironic... it's absurdly funny.

    Just stick to the paper - IF - it's an analogue (notes and odo readings) type navigation format that is to be used.

    The "water" excuse you cite is exactly that... a (historically baseless) excuse to reinforce a "pro" argument for the IT nerds. Honestly, if the moisture has gotten inside the road book roll - to a stage where it is really causing you navigational grief, well there's been a boo-boo madesomwhere (you've either tipped and drowned the bike - or - the monsoonal rains are so hard that they've penetrated the - usually dust sealed - road book casing)... in either case; the "wet paper" is probably one of the more minor concerns at that point... and to be frank - the sensitive electronic tablets that are being purported as "the new way" - from what I've seen, do not thrive in a H2O enriched environment all that well either. :lol3

    I see it as a "techies" dream to provide a "low tech" solution, using high technology... where none is really needed. The only time saving feature that the tablet provides - is that of rolling the paper up on the spool... you still have to "mark up", colour, edit/bracket and personalize the content... it just seems like technology for technologies sake - to me.

    If you are gonna go all NASA on us with electronics... go the whole hog... and make it F1 in the desert.

    Conversely - if the sport of rally is to remain a tactical thinking application of the roadbook - by the rider - as applied to the tripmeter and GPS... then I still think that the "low tech" paper route does the job... and can do so at all levels of the sport... from simple nav trials - to the DAKAR.

    On the other hand... having a rally app available in the iphone menu could be the boom the sport has been waiting for... :lol3
  8. mikseven

    mikseven Adventurer

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    CoMaster is FIM approved. The roadbook is created from rally navigator directly from organization that Will load It every day and Will cancel It at the end of the day. Rb is crypted.

    You can personalize it at the same manner of paper.

    CoMaster is not a tablet. It has a waterproof strong alu build. Tripmasters and screen run in separate electronics.

    It's much more resistant respect of a standard Md or F2R with less weight and in a compact size that permits good protections in case of crash.

    It costs equal to a complete setup.

    Often, evolution it's hard top accept

    Inviato dal mio WIM Lite utilizzando Tapatalk
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  9. LocuL

    LocuL Gnarly Infantry

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    Water is no excuse. Water is water, paper having a go on your RB roll will still end your day prematurely. Booboos will be booboos. I use "tablets" on job every day. As a soldier aka infantry we use the chest mounted system which this year has seen a lot. -21 celcius to +28 celcius and well Denmark is very often wet... a lot. It all manage well.

    Riders perspective could be less weight in front(maybe). Though if we for a moment think positive thoughts on ASOs part(hard to do). It might make some stuff less complicated for them in the event of a changed route. It happens(a lot)we all know. I´m not to decide in anyway i just think it could add to safety, less weight, quicker turnaround for ASOs/weatger feckups.

    I´m no techie or NASA. I´m infantry, the absolute rock bottom. I hide behind stacked earth bags, jump into ditches to not die. Thats screaming lowtech...though now i use a screen to help me in the process. When it dies i can still use a map and compass. The red line in this should be that the riders still need to be immensely sharp at riding, navigating, "learning" the stage, calculate there risk taking vs hail or fail etc. Though to challenge that, it requires a whole other level from ASOs motorcycle stage designer. King Marc Coma. But(t) that has ended as well.

    BTW i still think your, if it started at you(i cant recall) claim regarding "someone"(factory riders) crying if the stage navigation was a bit to hard. That MC had made it crazy. Do we have any proof of this. They might...might not. We are in no postion to add into this. Speculations...

    This is in no way added to harm anyone or the like. Its just my personal ramblings.
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  10. YOGOI

    YOGOI Prick

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    I think Troy secretly works at a print shop and is passionate about paper.
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  11. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    To counter - I'd like to say that personally, I think that a lot of the people that are "pushing" for the electronic nav aids ARE products of the IT / Tech / Nerd society we live in... Yes, sometimes progress is difficult to accept... and sometimes technology for technology's sake is foisted upon us (by those that market the products they intend to sell)... and sometimes (yes often) the evolution is valid.

    I don't really mind one way or the other... but the low tech/retro application still strikes me as amusing - just tossing out an alternate viewpoint to the popular notion of "... oh hell yeah, the tablet will change our lives, just like the smart phone saved them before that..." :augie- that has been chorused in here.

    You may joke about my interests in a print shop (good one btw :clap:lol3)... ironically I am the KAM for an industrial electronics company. :nod At this juncture I'd point out (again) that a lot of the "pro" electric supporters sound like there are vested interests... mikeseven for example - besides being a mad keen XT600 pundit and avid Italian Navigation Rally participant... his post in reply to my initial comments, reads like a brochure for the CoMaster. :1drink

    I don't think (can't recall :scratch) that I started any speculation (on the DAKAR) about factory riders "crying" during the stages due to the navigational complexities. In some instances I read of riders who were "crying" (for) action to be taken - due to the difficulties... In that sense "crying" could have been a metaphor for whingeing: a.k.a. whining, complaining, protesting etc.

    And then there were photo's of BamBam, with tears down his face... and he is a factory rider... so...?:dunno
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  12. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

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    What would you say that a bona fide technological leap would look like?
    HUD with all the data in the goggles would be nice, and it would cut on all that looking down at stationary picture at 100km/h.

    Advantages of tablets over paper RB are so minimal (from my remote perspective) that it's hardly worth the bother.
    In a way it really is evolution, meaning that it's one step forward-two steps back, and in an unlimited number of lifecycles it will work out. Maybe. :D
  13. cheekorollo

    cheekorollo Been here awhile

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    I find this debate very interesting. It's a good analogue for many debates about technology and change, and I'm not just talking about digital technologies, I'm talking about any area where an advance due to science and technology has changed common practices. More often than not, after the tensions during the arrival of a new technology, we end up with a better solution or system. Most of the time the new technology (after many revisions) wins the day. Sail vs Steam in the cargo shipping industry is a great example, where it took nearly 100 years for sail powered ships to be replaced by Steamers. I reckon we might see something similar here, where a digital solution eventually takes over, but I think there'll need to be a few iterations before it's universally acknowledged as a better solution. Hopefully it won't take 100 years...

    So I like to look at these debates and boil down exactly what problem we're trying to solve. For roadbooks I'd suggest these issues with the existing paper based setup:
    - Cost - The expense of printing quite a speciality product for a hundred plus riders isn't trivial.
    - Logistics - from the transport of 1400 (14 days * 100 riders) odd roadbook scrolls across 9,000 kms of south america isn't trivial. For a smaller rally, I'd expect it's still a pain in the arse to haul around all the bloody scrolls amongst the miriad of other things you have to do.
    - Production issues - Apparently there's only one printer in Australia that will print these now. I'm sure it's better in Europe, but as digital solutions take over in so many other areas, speciality printers are going to get rarer and rarer.
    - Updates - This is a BIG one. I race rally cars here in Aus, and at every roadbook based event there's at least a couple of corrections or amendments to make to the roadbook. In addition, there's often updates to the roadbook during the day after the 0 car runs through. Managing and effectively communicating these updates is difficult. And if there's an error in distributing the changes it can be a major safety issue. If a triple caution has sprung up where recent rain has eroded a 50 cm deep cut in the exit of a high speed blind corner, you really want to make sure each competitor has been notified about this.
    - Convenience - scrolls look like a pain to load into the roadbook holder!
    - Security - You do not want the competitors to know the course in advance (within accepted time frames - e.g. the night before for Dakar so roadbooks can be marked up). With big cash in the game it's nice to know an extra couple of scrolls haven't been run off and sold to an unscrupulous team looking for an edge, or that the apprentice that Myway follows on instagram hasn't taken a selfie with the presses running in the background churning out day 5's tulips.


    In addition, it's worth listing what elements of the system we're trying not to change, as they make up part of its essence. In my mind these are:
    - the interpretation of the route instructions is left entirely to the competitor - for me this includes interpreting the trip meter and advancing to the next roadbook instruction.
    - Robustness - Paper scrolls are readable in pretty much any condition, with the exception of being extremely waterlogged. Motor in the holder failed? No problem, wind it on manually. Done a Van Beveren and implanted your roadbook holder into a river bed, and unable to kick it back in to shape? No problem, pull the scroll out and tuck it into your pocket. You'll get there... depending on how many ribs you've broken.
    - Visibility - Paper's very easy to read in pretty much all lighting conditions, from pre dawn through to the burning desert sun. If you're chasing Big Kev wide open at 180 km/h, you wanna be able to see that tulip for which Rio to turn up with only the slightest glance.
    - Clarity - The ease with which the information can be interpreted is also important. Modern roadbooks are highly developed in this regard, and the information in each instruction is well laid out, easily decipherable (once the abbreviations are learnt) and contains no superfluous information. They are a great example of the evolution of a user experience design (to lift a term from software development). Contrast a modern roadbook to Sabine's route notes from the first Dakar and you get the idea:
    [​IMG]

    To me, ERTF's solution solves many of the current issues, but regresses on a few elements we want to preserve, most notably on clarity. That screen is a shit show and I don't know where to look when I'm sitting here in a comfortable chair with all the time in the world, let alone trying to sneak a glance while holding a stand up drift two foot away from a cliff edge high in the Andes at 120 clicks.

    CoMaster, the system Mikseven mentioned, looks pretty cool. Check out the video on their website to see how it works: https://www.comaster.net/en/ However, I'm not a fan of the way it links the odo with the tulip, and also how it does the countdown, as it takes away one of the tasks the competitor has to manage in order to win. No doubt it could be uncoupled so the competitor has to operate the roadbook manually.

    I'd have questions about the visibility of both solutions as compared to paper in different lighting conditions. Even the latest phone screens can be a pain in very strong sunlight. e-Ink screens would probably address this concern though.

    Do I support the change? Yeah, broadly. But, for the reasons described above, I don't think either the ERTF nor the CoMaster system is quite there for me yet.

    To be honest, I don't think this is where ASO, the FIM, and associated race organisations should be focusing their efforts. Instead, I'd like to see them focus on fan engagement. Live tracking is available now, and it's simply a matter of ASO turning it on. In addition, live vision should be a focus. ASO's 30 mins of daily Dakar is grotesquely insufficient, and the rise of complimentary coverage from the firehose, facebook live, various live streams of domestic TV services, etc demonstrates the spectator's desire for more. I'd like to see effort focused here - I'm thinking data relays from aircraft or drones with enough bandwidth to carry vision from a camera crew in the dunes or from the choppers would be good. And from onboard cameras. It would be interesting to see what WRC are doing here and if its possible to leverage similar technologies for cross country events. Even a 'rally radio' service which could even be operated from the control room in France would be an improvement!

    And yes, I'm a tech guy... an IT Manager and occasional amateur software developer... :D
  14. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    THAT's the ticket...!!! :lol3:clap (I knew you were an idea's man b boy :wink: )

    ... and a lock on/aquisition radar system, to keep track of the other lead riders in the pack... desert dogfights! :rofl
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  15. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    An awesome, objective "both sides of the cherry" post cheeko... :clap:clap:clap
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  16. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    What's being missed to a large extent is the affect of paper vs electronic on the race organization. After all, it is the org that will decide which options are available for any particular rally. On the surface electronic has the promise of significant reduction in effort to print and/or distribute the roadbooks. There would seem to be all kinds of things that become possible with electronics that are not possible or maybe just not practical with paper, such as wireless distribution. However, as we are finding with the Stella, Rally Comp, ERTF GPS and other rally management devices, what's possible and what works well for both the org and the competitor are two different things. At the moment, in real world usage, these very sophisticated electronic devices and systems create as many problems as they solve. I'm a huge fan of things that SIMPLIFY my life. Someday an all electronic roadbook may do that for both the org and the competitor. But we are not there yet, which is why I'm still paper oriented.

    One aspect that will challenge the electronic solutions is standardization. There are already several electronic roadbook device options, none of which seem to be in any way compatible with each other. So, one rally org may pick one solution while another org picks another solution. Will competitors buy these devices or will the orgs "rent" them for each event? Will competitors be mounting different devices for each event? Will they have to buy another one when rev2.0 hardware comes out? Will worldly competitors have to learn all the ins and outs of several systems, and keep up with all the ever changing functionality? These complications don't come up with the standardized paper solution.

    Paper has its own challenges, but in my opinion they are less than the electronic device challenges, for now anyway.
  17. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    I saw this problem coming a few years ago and created OpenRally.org. It's certainly not ubiquitous, but many of the folks dabbling in digital rally technology are using this and contributing to it. Fingers crossed.

    Dave
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  18. mikseven

    mikseven Adventurer

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    Yes, I'm a Tech Fan and I work in an IT Company. I Like tech evolution and also Old School Technologies. The intent of my reply was not to put a brochure of the CoMaster. I have no interest in CoMaster diffusion. CoMaster doesn't support me and I bought it. My intent was:
    1. To specify that there are no advantages over the other competitors in terms of route availability o management during the race.
    2. That is well build (I started using it 3 years ago) and run with the same concepts of a standard setup. It can break in the same way of the standard solution but its size allows a more protected assembly.
    That's all.

    Many riders, once they have seen as it work, continue to prefer the standard solution for the pleasure of using paper. I understand them and I totally agree with them. I raced with modern bikes until last year, but the sensations that give me a bike that I dreamed of as a child make me happier, even if less performing.
  19. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente #501 Team f5oolery

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    Thank's mike... your follow up gives a nice balanced picture of your interest/enthusiasm for the topic - much appreciated. :clap
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  20. tehdutchie

    tehdutchie Long timer

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    Tripy already has the solution..