The Bivouac (general rallye raid news)

Discussion in 'Racing' started by PackMule, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. gagnaou

    gagnaou Long timer

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    Check out the Bivouac thread, there is also rumors that he and Coma have signed back with KTM and that KTM is developping a 450...
  2. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    The RFS engine has not been 'current' for a couple of years now, it's the XC4 that is in the current EXC range (which has, amongst other things twin oil chambers and thus even less capacity)... I understand that some riders of the current 450/530 bikes drill the crank cases to allow the oil to circulate better - but I still think they will need a cooler/aux oil tank to improve capacity?

    As for using a sleeved down version of the old LC4 engined bikes? Never! I double they would even sleeve a 690 engine to be honest - the bike is physically far larger than it needs to be to compete with the other 450cc class machines?

    I envisage something along the lines of a Meca'system style 450, but perhaps with a one-piece rear tank/seat/subframe a la the 690RRs?

    J xx
  3. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

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    fixed.. girl you know your stuff I just had a brain fart...

    a place near yosemite is always open when you make it back over!
  4. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Hee hee - well, I'm kinda making it my business to know as much as I can about the different 450cc options at the moment x

    A while back I speculated that a DRZ400 might make a good basis for a budget Dakar entry (not least the reliability of the engine and the easy/cheap availablity of spare parts) and I found this little gem recently:

    [​IMG]

    There is the spec and more info here: http://www.ivokastan.cz/index.php?pg=061214

    Although it is in Czech of course... seems very similar to what I was proposing though (450cc kit etc)...

    Also, it turns out it was the same guy who rode the pit-bike in the Dakar last year (nutter!)... small world this Rally lark init?

    J xx

    ps. I love Yosemite - I'll be in touch x
  5. metropolis2k

    metropolis2k Been here awhile

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    Any excuse for a photo :D

    [​IMG]

    I want one!
  6. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Hee hee - you wonder where he carried 3 litres of fuel, let alone water?!

    xxx
  7. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

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    he was selling that on ebay recently ..
  8. SafariBerg

    SafariBerg Oz Safari Addict

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    KTM have 4 options easily available to them

    1) a sleeved down 690RR using the Rallye light approach like they did at the CER in 2008

    This was done to great success with the 2005 450RR they made & raced, David Schwarz has said his 2005 Factory 450RR he used in Dakar 2005 is as fast as his 690RR

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]



    2) they still make the RFS motors for the quads, Annie Seel bought a new RFS motor from the factory for her Dakar 2010 bike this year, so a RFS motor based bike is easy

    3) the XC motor with lots of factory mods to make it last the distance

    4) use the Husaberg FE450 bike/motor. There were comments coming out of the factory rallye team this year at Dakar that they are seriously looking at using the FE450 platform for Dakar next year. This coupled with comments back in late 2008 and early 2009 that the next generation RR bikes would have sloper motors like the new Bergs, show very clearly that the benefits of that configuration for rallye are seen :evil
  9. K2vodka

    K2vodka Been here awhile

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    Oops! I was in the wrong section. My apologizes.

    Obviously my question has been asked a while ago... and still no answer.
  10. SafariBerg

    SafariBerg Oz Safari Addict

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    seems like no one really knows for sure

    or those that do arnt saying :dunno
  11. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Hi Safari' - I agree there are a number of possibilities, however, I can't see KTM using their 'old' technology (ie the RFS engine) in their flagship factory effort? - that would be an admission of failure, even though, as we know, the RFS engine has proved very reliable for what is still a competitive 'race' motor...

    Likewise, there is no way KTM will use the Husaburg engine - if only from a marketing point of view, they can't be seen to admit that a 'competitor' (even if they are the parent company) has a better design than they do?

    That is not to say they are not working on their own development of the sloped motor (not that any other manufacturers can really see the benefit so far?), but to KTM brand image (and to a no lesser extent, 'racing what you sell') is everything... if you look at the new generation 350cc SX bike, I think that is where we'll see the EXC's heading? I can't imagine for a moment that KTM would have a brand new (and unproven) motor ready for next year's Dakar - that would be far too risky - think of all the "KTM can't cut it in the 450cc class" headlines - nightmare!

    Personally I still think we'll see a derivative of the current 450cc XC4 engine, in a simpler chassis (rather than the trellis of the 690s), but with a one-piece rear end, and a similar fairing design to the current 690... just my feeling...

    Jenny xx
  12. ManxBerg

    ManxBerg Rallye Raid

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    I agree with Jmo, in that KTM will want to win with their engine. However I think some of us are looking at the problem from a privateers perspective.

    The new 450 rule will, for me, mean that the top teams will have a lot more for the mechanics to do. I applaud Sherco for their attempt at the Dakar this year, but was horrified to hear that they were stripping and rebuilding the motors every night!
    You can be sure that next year KTM will be rebuilding motors everynight to make sure their 450 gets to the end. This to the outside world will make the KTM engine look strong and reliable. Proven in the Dakar!

    This doesn't help anyone in the short term, but hopefully will lead to more reliable 450's in the future.
    Personally I still don't understand who the rule change is mean't to help. The 450's still go fast enough for you to get hurt, and the future privateer will now have a less reliable bike, which probably needs an engine change on the rest day.
  13. metropolis2k

    metropolis2k Been here awhile

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    That's a story he doesn't want to talk about :puke1

    Kidding aside, I know he got special dispensation to ride that, maybe they waived a few other rules too for him.

    I must have missed that! Probably for the best though, I might have done something silly like buy it.
  14. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    I share your concerns Manxberg - I spent a lot of time (and money) building a 660cc rally bike last year, and now (realistically) I'm going to have to build a 450cc bike, and yet there is nothing out there with the bullet-proof reliability of a large capacity machine (unless I go totally old skool with an XR400 or DRZ400 and a big bore kit...)

    However, from talk 'around the paddock' last year when the 450cc rule was introduced, it seems the feeling is that ASO want to limit the number of privateer entries on this rally anyway - we all know that a privateer entry in the bike class is the cheapest way to enter the Dakar, and it's not so much that privateers have more accidents (a lot don't, as their focus is on finishing, not racing at the limit the whole time), or even lack the necessary experiance - rather they want to preserve or even enhance the image that the Dakar is all about the elite, and 'superhuman', and not least that factory (or sponsored) teams have a lot more money, and will pay extra entry fees for all the additional mechanics they bring with them to ensure success?

    I do think the ruling had a lot to do with encouraging other manufacturers (or at least teams willing to field bikes other than KTMs) to enter the race too - whether that happens we'll have to see, although like you say, Sherco did incredibly well for a first time effort - and no wonder they took every precaution to ensure the bike started the next morning!

    However, while the bikes still provide a fantastic spectacle, I fear ASO are more interested in the 4 wheeled dollars the major manufacturers bring to the party? One thing is for sure, they aren't going to introduce a rule that makes it easier for anyone, or makes them any less money!

    Just a thought to poke the fire around the bivouac mind...

    Jenny xx
  15. rallye

    rallye Been here awhile

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    I agree, i think KTM are working on a design that will be capable of dominating for the next 5-8 years,if Despres and Coma do stick with KTM ,they will need equipment capable of winning ,Look how long the old LC 4/New LC 4 motors lasted,and if the rule change wasn't pushed apon them how long would it of been before they would update the new LC 4 690 ?

    everyone knows KTM have dominated for the last 8 or 9 years, but part of that success is having the best riders on the planet riding their equipment.
    the privateers will follow who provides the best backup support ,and KTM win that hands down too,as no other manufactuer even supports any privateer.
  16. SafariBerg

    SafariBerg Oz Safari Addict

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    A LC4 450 RR based on the 690RR but with a weight loss programme etc would be just as fast as any other 450 out there, low development cost, much better reliablity, much less bivouac work intensive..............and they did it before and it was at the front end of the 450 class


    as for marathon single engine 450's not making it I think Franco Picco this year proved they can and still run fast
  17. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    I don't disagree with anything above S'B - like you say, the RFS is an excellent choice for the privateer entry, perhaps even better than the current generation XC4? - especially in marathon class...

    I also would love to see a factory Husaberg team in the Dakar next year - I think that new bike has a great deal of potential as you have experienced already...

    The Rally light version of the 690 you posted earlier is a great looking machine, and I'd agree that a sleeved down version (as long as they do actually sleeve it down of course, ahem) is probably the simplest way for KTM to enter the 450cc class competitively - however, it begs the question why didn't they use them this year? (not withstanding the fact it would need the full front fuel tanks fitting as well for Dakar) - after all, they had to 're-engineer' the 690 to 730cc negate the intake restrictor - why not spend that effort in creating a competitive 450cc version which was inevitable anyway?

    J xx
  18. M.R.

    M.R. Been here awhile

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    Not sure you would get too many brits, yanks etc racing through Libya:eek1. When they kidnap you, it is for keeps
  19. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Libya has changed in recent years - they are actively encouraging tourism... that is not to say there won't be the odd fractious group trying it on, but I imagine the government will do everything they can to ensure the huge ASO money machine is welcome in Libya?

    J xx
  20. canadaler

    canadaler Been here awhile

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    I've been keeping an eye on the LDC and it seems to have gotten back on track over the last couple of years, following a very sketchy start and cancellation a few years back.

    One thing which can change virtually overnight though is the status of things like visitor's visas. One day you could be allowed in, the next day not. Canada pissed them off and we are now persona-non-grata there. Same thing could potentially happen to Yanks and Brits at the drop of a hat. But personally...I don't think I'd worry as much about personal security there as much as in Mauritania.

    The other issue I have with it (since I cross the Canada/US border so frequently) is with the current state of security I'm not sure I want the extra scrutiny a Libyan stamp on my passport would garner me every time at the US border.

    One thing is for sure...the dunes and landscape there are simply astounding.