more power to you. as i said, i need guys like you, who ewentually wanna sell your stuff! but a lot of folks - like myself - do know how to research and negotiate. we yust don't wanna take the depreciation on buying something new. we're certainly not gonna pay more for something used than new, tho. which is why i haven't bought new in almost 40 years of buying wehicles. my first bike - a used 1973 honda cb450 - i bought for $525, as it was only running on one cylinder. $30 (at the dealer) to replace points, and it was good as new. i put ~10k on it and sold it for $575 3 years later. this is typical of the deals i make on cars & bikes. tho i don't always come out ahead financially, i am not looking to do that, i yust want a nice ride at a nice price, and it usually works out well. 3.5 years ago, i bought a mint gen-1 scion xb w/58k on it for $8k from a dealer. now, w/105k on it, i could sell it for about what i paid for it. maintenance has been brake pads, tires, and oil changes. i have no intention of selling it any time soon, tho - it is a great ride. economical, handles great, roomy, more fun to drive than riding a harley! re: my dr650, it's a 2000 model, was a little rough when i got it, but it only had 8k on it, and the engine was in great shape. no way i could get this bike equipped like this, the way i want it, for $4k, w/o researching and negotiating. and i there's nothing i could buy new for $4k that i would actually want. as i already had two bikes, a 3rd was a luxury, and i busted my original budget by $1k as it is... ymmv, doug s.