The issues of fuel injectors and "adventure" bikes

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Mambo Dave, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. Albie

    Albie Kool Aid poisoner

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Oddometer:
    10,191
    Location:
    NWA

    Must be a shitty BMW thing. I had a battery die on my R1 a few years back on a trip and I could bump start it and get going no problem. Do I even need to mention my battery-less FI MX bike? :lol3
    #81
  2. Albie

    Albie Kool Aid poisoner

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Oddometer:
    10,191
    Location:
    NWA
    fify
    #82
  3. eric2

    eric2 ®egister this:

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Oddometer:
    3,815
    Location:
    Austin

    :eek1:huh:roflDelusions, you haz them.

    planned obsolescence? are we talking about points or electronic ignition? What special tools are needed to fix electronic ignition? You're talking out of your ass. I have 150k between k1200s and r1200gs and have never had an electronics issue, and the plugs in the GS last 50k easily.

    Bearings without grease ports? WTF are you talking about? I'm not aware of any mfg, car or bike putting grease ports on in this day and age. Final drives taking dumps? pretty small percentage considering how many have been sold, and I never even serviced the FD on ANY of my 7 bmws so equipped, including 2 airheads.

    And whats with this nonsense "VS R80 G/S monolever final drive are bathe in oil and typically last life of bike. "
    You don't think new FDs are bathed in oil? You're making a fool out of yourself.

    Here's a real laugher:

    "you are dreaming if you think new BMW motorcyles are more reliable than my R80 G/S. this is assuming both are in same condition. for instance my R80 G/S has gone though a frame-off rebuilt ... engine balanced to 1/10 gram, tranny refreshed, new wiring harness, all bearings/seals replaced, shocks front and rear revalved, upgrade alternator, new cables, carbs refresh, etc. etc. "

    How many miles were on your R80gs when you had to do a frame off rebuild? You conveniently left out that part. I haven't had to do that on my r12gs, and its got 125k miles on it.

    Finally, a tank of bad fuel is not going to destroy an engine just because it doesn't have knock sensor. You really have lost it and show you really are clueless as to the workings of simple mechanics. Wouldn't there be a lot of destroyed engines if this is the case?

    I'm with Jim, this is a luddite thread that started out as a debate between FI and carbs and has now devolved into
    longing for the good old days when bikes were "reliable".

    Here's the news, my R75/5 and R65Ls were the most unreliable bikes I've owned. The R65LS alone had these failures
    before 50k miles.

    Oil soaked clutch
    Broken shift linkage in transmission (warranty)
    Dual coils exploded 60 miles outside Waco
    Open in the alternator rotor (common problem but not everyone carries a spare because its so unreliable)
    paint peeling off wheels
    leaky FD
    carb diaphrams
    throttle linkage\gears
    diode board
    floats sticking in carbs spilling fuel everywhere.
    rotting exhaust pipes
    alternator too weak to keep battery charged in town
    difficult to start in cold weather.

    I finally sold it after 12 years and only 90k miles, and it likely needed a top end rebuild.

    What really irritates airhead lovers is the superior mileage my r1200gs gets, I was lucky to get 40mpg
    on my airheads on the highway but can average 45mpg around town now. How can a motor with twice the displacement
    get better mileage? FI and electronic ignition thats how, and running out of gas will leave you just as starnded
    as these new "unreliable" bikes do.


    You've convinced me though, I can make my reliable r1200gs even more reliable by fitting carbs, converting to points
    and condenser, changing to monolever FD. I'm also gonna ditch the hydraulics and switch to drum brakes and cables to make it bulletproof.


    :rofl
    #83
  4. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    BS ... I can back up everything I've posted.

    1. mfg starting with Mercedes Benz in the 60's would change parts just to make it slightly different to give it another part number. for example a waterpump that bolted identical to another one, except flanges were changed to prevent mating with fan blade. chassis numbers were required to order correct parts.

    2. Ball joints and U-joints routinely made with grease zerts now had none .. when factory grease was gone, metal to metal contact destroyed joints. bearings with access to allow repack with grease are now sealed. when factory grease is gone... bearing destroys itself.

    3. legislation had to introduced to force mfg to provide computer access codes to allow aftermarket mechanics to work on modern computer controlled systems. without computer access, it's impossible to work on new computer controlled systems.

    4. all sorts of designs implemented to change what was a simple job into a money $$$ making operation. example: replacing fuel pump requires dropping fuel tank ... having to remove entire front end to work on motor for late model diesel pickups.. etc. etc.. NO way this was by accident

    5. Monolever rear ends on G/S are bathed in oil and typically last life of bike.

    6. there's many documented instances of F8 engines destroyed .. teardown reveled cratered pistons, etc... massive damage caused by engine detonation.

    7. it's well known paralever rear ends and newer routinely take dumps after 50k or so miles. some dump with less miles, others go 150k without problems. Stators on F8 routines take dumps after about 45k miles... etc. etc..

    points/condenser may need more attention, but they can be gotten back up every time vs electronic ignitions have zero maintenance, but if they puke you are walking... there would not be so many aftermarket electronic ignitions for airheads, if BMW airhead electronic ignitions were dead reliable. NO mfg is going to make a product with no demand.

    it's all a trade off ... for me I'd rather put up with higher maintenance and know I can get my bike running again.
    there's many threads on Adv documenting everything posted above...

    getting tired of typing ... you must be in a vacuum if you have not seen above. ALL bikes need maintenance ... never have I claimed Airheads need no maintenance.
    #84
  5. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,968
    Location:
    Southern New Jersey
    I had a bunch of them from when they were new, till now, and never had problems.
    If you know how to go through things and prevent problems, they never happen.


    #85
  6. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    10,450
    Location:
    India Wharf
    My old KTM 950 had carbs. I bought it new. It was a crude running motorcycle and even suffered carb icing under damp conditions below 50F. I suffered through 60k miles on it. I got used to it, though. Sudden death syndrome and all...

    My sons TZ and Aprilia road racers were carbed. Very finicky jetting that would change through a given day.

    Our 600 road racers were FI. In a few seconds could remap for fuels or whatever. Amazing things for tuning.

    My Yam 250R is my first FI dual sport. I rode it as high as 12,600 feet on Grayback Mountain in CO, plus all the other passes along the CDR. Always ran perfect.

    My newest is a KTM 690R. Another perfectly fueling motor. My son's KTM 350 EXC-F is another example of a motor that fuels perfectly in all conditions.

    When was the last automobile fuels with carbs? 1980 maybe?

    I'd never go back to carbs, even if I was riding RTW. Failures are so rare, and I can get parts shipped no matter where I am.
    #86
  7. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2003
    Oddometer:
    5,061
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana or Southern England or ...
    Some airhead parts swap like lego - some newer stuff also between similar models. It's now easier to redesign parts rather than having to tweak old designs which has more to do with CAD and CNC manufacturing than profiteering. Besides I don't see the relationship to reliability.

    Old designs needed a squirt of grease every oil change and STILL wore out eventually (you're kidding yourself if you believe otherwise). Sealed bearings are (usually) sealed because that keeps the grease in and means they don't need external greasing, not to ensure they'll wear out without maintenance. I see that as an improvement (despite a few known exceptions)

    legislation? I think the manufacturers either offered the information or hackers found it out anyway

    I've come across a few things like that - peculiar fasteners to prevent the average mechanic getting at certain things without buying special tools. Probably has more to do with government-required anti-tamper features and liability though. Some designs create maintenance difficulties but are intended for easier, faster, simpler, more modular assembly. Compact installation to minimize the size of the hood and reduce frontal area for fuel efficiency is the likely driving force behind crowded under-hood areas. In the case of diesel pickups, the engines don't (or shouldn't) need nearly as frequent attention as the "good old days" when you had room to stand beside the engine under the hood - Back then, of course the engines had 1/3 the HP, gave 1/3 the fuel economy and needed mechanical maintenance every few thousand miles with major overhaul usually at no more than 100K. Diesel pickups didn't exist and you also probably didn't have A/C or half the other "essential" features of a modern vehicle.

    Are we talking about modern engineering designs in general or the issues peculiar to paralever BMWs in-particular?

    Fewer than the instances of airhead engines eating valves via several modes of failure I'll bet - or losing oil pressure due to the filter can receding into the engine or the filter O-ring not being compressed just right, or simply wearing out in the days before nikasil bores, etc., etc. There is NO DOUBT that MTBF is less for the newer designs - and you're not fixing a holed piston by the side of the road on any bike, old or new.

    Well known to whom? Oh damn - I guess my 1100 is living on borrowed time then - LOL. Airhead transmissions fail by breaking springs, eating thrust bearings, etc., etc. at lower mileage than that and the alternator rotors, voltage regulators, rectifier boards and various other electrical bits can and do let go at any mileage. Then there's the fiddly bean can advance systems and crackomatic coils. My oilhead has not been perfectly reliable but I guarantee I've put on several thousand happy travelling miles while some poor R80 G/S owner was trying to do regular maintenance on his bike and work-around some of the above issues.

    ...and I'd rather be out riding and know that the chance of needing to try and get my bike running again is much less
    So if you admit that airheads need more maintenance to keep them running, how exactly can you still defend the position that they are more reliable? Sorry but that seems self-contradctory
    #87
  8. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    good grief ... do you actually believe that horseshit?
    #88
  9. John Smallberries

    John Smallberries Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,348
    Location:
    Northville, Michigan
    In Sept 2011 I did the "Intro to Adventure" and "Base Camp Alpha" excursions with RawHyde Adventures in Castaic, CA (fantastic!). Riding buddy, Dave, ended up in this slot in the Jawbone area:
    [​IMG]
    In the drop, he broke off the electrical connector to the LH fuel injector:
    [​IMG]
    Leaving him with a "600GS". Our RawHyde leader was able to limp the bike out, but he was done for the trip.

    The moral of the story to me wasn't "shoulda had a carb", but "shoulda bought a Touratech fuel injector protector"
    [​IMG]
    #89
  10. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,451
    Location:
    Shippensburg, PA
    It is obvious that the carb lovers have never heard of reliability engineering.

    And before you start with your "my carbed bikes have never failed but my buddies EFI bike has..." just remember that data is not the plural of anecdote.

    Carbs are dead in cars and trucks and soon in bikes. Not because of some nefarious conspiracy between government and OEM parts makers. It's because EFI is demonstrably better.
    #90
  11. Tepi

    Tepi Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Oddometer:
    543
    Location:
    Helsinki/Heinola Finland
    You can crack a carb wide open in a crash.... try fixing that on the side of the road.
    #91
  12. fallingoff

    fallingoff Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Oddometer:
    3,677
    Location:
    syd oz
    sorry mate
    i have had two
    stick coil failures on my k12s
    both worked out of the bike
    not when installed
    also my old beveldrive duc ran with no battery
    one kick start.

    cheers
    #92
  13. windmill

    windmill Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,084
    Location:
    Kent, Washington State
    I don't question that EFI is functionally superior, but..................................





    When someone claims that this is less prone to failure and is easier to fix.................................
    [​IMG]

    Than this........................
    [​IMG]

    well...........................:hmmmmm
    #93
  14. larryboy

    larryboy Chopper Rider

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Oddometer:
    15,372
    Location:
    Returning likes on redemption road.


    I'll take picture number two for $1200, windmill. Especially right here, all alone:


    [​IMG]
    #94
  15. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    Exactly!!!! man I'm saving these pic's ... gets the point across.
    #95
  16. fallingoff

    fallingoff Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Oddometer:
    3,677
    Location:
    syd oz

    both are full of black magic

    cheers
    #96
  17. Fictitious

    Fictitious Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Oddometer:
    203
    Location:
    British Columbia
    The wiring diagram really isn't that complicated. The carb, on the other hand, has a buttload of tiny passages, small moving parts, springs, jets, and needles. All of which can be broken beyond repair in a crash or when you decide to take it apart on the roadside. They can also be easily lost on the ground. Heck, I have a hard enough time keeping track of all my carb parts in the garage. I can't fix a bent a bent throttle needle roadside anymore then I can fix a broken ECU. Not to mention, even most carb'd bikes have ECU's these days, so by having a carb you aren't eliminating that "scary" wiring diagram, you're just making it smaller.
    #97
  18. _cy_

    _cy_ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    pleaseeesssee ... do you actually belief that horseshit?
    #98
  19. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,451
    Location:
    Shippensburg, PA
    I do.

    Find a schematic diagram for the computer you are posting from, then place a simplified typewriter diagram next to it. Geez, that fancy 'puter thing is WAY too complex. It must be broken down all the time, what with all them thar fancy little pieces.

    Mechanical systems are inherently subject to mechanical wear and mechanical maladjustment. Oddly enough it is almost always the mechanical parts (pump first of all) of the an EFI system that fail. So the solution the Luddites propose is to use a COMPLETELY mechanical system.

    Brilliant!
    #99
  20. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,968
    Location:
    Southern New Jersey
    I find FI to be very simple, and systems on bikes so far are dirt simple.
    On a Japanese bike, you can expect very few problems, and if you educate yourself about it, its very easy to trouble shoot and fix a problem, car or bike.

    Besides some crappy German and American cars, its typical for a FI system on a modern car to be trouble free for the life of the car.

    And if you want to compare FI and carbs, do not post up diagrams of crappy CV carbs with poor throttle response, post up a pumper carb, which is as good as FI.

    I like both systems, FI is no fuss, sellf correcting, gets better range out of a tank of gas, and a good pumper carb is cheap and easy to dial in. Both are WAY better then CV carbs!

    Carbs and their vacuum petcocks have more problems on average then FI on a good brand bike, but can be fixed easy and cheap.
    You can keep abs, traction control, and any other stupid proof the rider systems.

    If you really like old tech, get an old tube type TV set, that will keep you busy...