The KaTaMaki 650 ADV project (KTM LC4 gets a twin engine swap)

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by LukasM, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. katumo_jtb

    katumo_jtb bogus journeyer

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    Tony-
    There were lots of changes to front forks over the years but the steering head was the same for all years. Some LC4's had oil in the front downtube and some didn't. Also some LC4's had counter-balancers and some didn't. Those with counter-balancers have more clearance at the front of the frame. I believe all oil-in-frame LC4's were counter-balanced, so that should indicate more front clearance.

    Somewhere around 2000 there was a change in bottom frame rails, I believe from round tube to square tube (?). Engine mounting points remained the same though.

    Rear suspension mounting points were the same for all years. Some supermoto models had a wider swingarm for a 5" rear tire.

    John
  2. BeeDub

    BeeDub Havagoowan

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    Cool build idea Lukas! I'll be keeping track. I just wanted to let you know that I got curious about this motor, and ended up finding a free download for the workshop manual on the 650r. You can find that here. There are several other cool things on that site too, happy hunting. :thumb
  3. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Your Guide

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    I wonder if the XR L has the tach and standard ignition switch. I've heard on some cars, the engine won't run if it's not in the circuit. I thought I'd leave the KTM cluster and not use the tach. I'd learn pretty quick not to bounce it off the limiter and besides, I want low end grunt most of the time. Very curious about the radiator, too. One KTM looks the same size as the Versys. Mine came with fan. Could move it over to the right one with the filler and make room. Still looking for an engine...
  4. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Somehow my subscription got messed up when the thread was moved, but I'm back now! Hopefully with some progress this weekend, supposedly the Versys engine is in transit to Austria once again. I'll believe it when I hold it in my hands...


    Now you've done it Arch... but it's all good, I have secretly started calling this thing "The Beast" a while ago anyway (even though it's really just a bare frame at this point :D).



    You might want to get in touch with the Webers. I remember reading in a post somewhere how many hours it takes them to make the frame, was it 600? That's why they put a $50k+ tag on the Rally twin.

    Coming from the kit car world I can definitely see the point of a donor bike concept, though. Sign me up if you make one that will accept KTM parts! :clap


    Tony,

    The LC4 frame is basically the same for all the years, just some smaller details as pointed out above. The SC and SXC version came without frame in the oil, but that tube will likely have to be removed anyway since it's in the same place as the 650 oil filter. I am looking into an oil filter relocation kit, though, in case that is the only thing in the way. For our purposes go with whatever is cheapest, or where you can recover money from selling the engine.

    Forks will also interchange between most KTM models, I have a set of revalved and resprung 48mm WP forks off an 03 SX for my 97 frame.

    For your other questions:

    1. We'll know more about the clearances once one of us actually puts the twin into the chassis. The throttle bodies might require more room than the carb but I think the engine is not as high. With some luck we could just make a bigger airbox in the stock location. For my bike I am also considering putting on the split front tanks which would allow me to run the airbox in between, just like on the KTM 950/990 and Rally bikes.

    2. The fuel pump is something I have looked into quite a bit as well. We need 45psi at the injectors, which means most automotive and motorcycle EFI pumps will work. The easiest would probably be to have an inline external pump and regulator hooked up to the stock fuel tap. The Adventure tank would even give you another tap which you could hook up to the return line of the regulator. With the 4 Rally tanks it gets much more complicated of course, i.e. how do you assure fuel gets drawn from each tank equally, where do you hook the return line up to etc. Might require a complex solution with a surge tank...

    3. All LC4s have two radiators, with the Adventure ones being a bit bigger (or so I read). Comparing the surface area, together they are about equal to the single Kawi one. You can put one or two fans on them as well, so I am not expecting any problems in this regard.

    Thanks for the link, that site was very helpful.

    The 650 engine will run without the instrument cluster hooked up. However it provides a lot of useful info, so I might just keep it. Since you will likely throw all of the KTM wiring out it's definitely a better option than the KTM cluster.
  5. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Your Guide

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    I know it's a small item but we have "Revision Tecnica" here in CR and the speedo needs to be in Kilometers. Any ideas? Looking for a whole wreck here in CR. Will make paperwork much easier... Fast Eddie is standing by with torch and Bridgeport....:evil
  6. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    How about a solution instead, this is for the Versys gauges:

    • Indicate the ODO mode.
    • Check that the display [A] change to the mile and km display each time by pushing the RESET button while MODE button pushed in.



    Modern technology has it's advantages! :clap On the KTM you would have to change out the mechanical odometer drive and the gauges....
  7. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Your Guide

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    ...and thanks again... anyone need a KTM speedo in K's? Available soon as I get a donor.
  8. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    No worries Paul! I like the enthusiasm. :thumb

    Which of the donor bikes were available in CR?
  9. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Your Guide

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    Don't know yet. I'm in touch with Edwin Fonseca (Ernesto's dad) here in CR. He's a Kaw dealer who also does business in Miami. Eddie and I are watching the prices of good used ones and a couple expensive wrecks that would cost the same by the time they were shipped from LA or England.

    Mostly, I'm relaxing my grip and waiting for feedback from the noise I made with salvage yards, insurance companys and police connections. "What, tail light out? 'Fraid we're gonna have to impound your bike, son...":wink:
  10. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    I expect that 600-hour figure is for initial concept all the way through to the first frame off the jig. I know flat track frame builders that can crank out a custom (i.e. all tubes hand-bent) frame every week. It's a much simpler frame, however.

    IMHO, KTM has an excellent system for it's wheels -- same bolt pattern for all consumables, across all models and years (more or less). It also has the effect of driving down the cost of used parts and replica parts. Definitely my choice.

    Regarding the kit format, a donor vehicle is both a necessity and an evil - I expect there is a seductive call to compromise your design ideas/ideals in order to save on fabrication time/cost by reusing OEM parts.

    Do keep us posted, and satisfy our curiosity with many, many pix!
  11. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    So..... I got the Versys engine today!!! :clap

    It looks to be in very good shape and pretty much complete. Got the fuel pump, EFI system, airbox, wiring harness, gauges and handlebar switches with it. I forgot to bring my camera but I've got an hour before I fly out tomorrow and will take some pics then.

    Of course the first thing I did after unpacking was to weigh it. :D According to the analog scale about 54kgs +- 1kg (119 lbs). However the wiring harness and all the other crap weighs a ton as well. I will definitely have to put it on a "wiring diet" by cutting out the ABS, safety sensors and other crap. Reduces weight, simplifies things and removes potential problems.

    Next I tried to drop the engine into the frame which I simply laid on the ground. Unfortunately it BARELY doesn't fit. The shape looks like it was made for it but it's missing about 1" on the front (where the water pump and oil filter sit) and quite a bit on the bottom because of the weird shape of the oil pan (which I removed thinking that the engine had been drained - what a mess!! :stupid). I am going to cut a few unneeded brackets off the frame tomorrow but don't think this will solve it. Worst case it will require new bottom frame rails, but I kinda saw that one coming anyway.

    Regarding the oil pan, the drain plug is extended about 1.5" on the bottom. I want to loose as little ground clearance as possible so I will have to do something about that. From looking at the inside it shouldn't be a problem to just cut that part off. Maybe I'll have to reinforce it a bit to get enough threads for the plug.

    This is what it looks like on the Ninja 650R:

    [​IMG]
  12. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Your Guide

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    Congrats Lukas! Can't you just stop traveling for awhile and get to work? I'm building mine in my head every day...
  13. tonymorr

    tonymorr Malta,NY(Saratoga Spring)

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    One thought I had (if keeping the Kawasaki frame) is to just machine a new oil pan. It's not very big and I have access to CNC machines. A sturdier pan with bosses for a skidplate:evil
  14. pilot

    pilot Slacker Moderator Super Moderator

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    Hmmm, you could probably sell a few of those. :augie
  15. IheartmyNx

    IheartmyNx Ihave2draft

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    You da man! :clap IIRC, my Nx engine is 70lbs...


    I'm Jonesing real bad at the though of this engine (the Ninja tho) in one of my Nx250 frames...

    Should be a powerful 300- 320 lbs wet bike...:D
  16. mtothef

    mtothef Been here awhile

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    not to be a thread hijacking douche, but you must have one of the special titanium and helium model nx650s. never seen a dry weight for one of those fine machines at anything less than 360 pounds. hell, not even an xr600 or an xr650r could get much below 280 DRY (honda claimed the xr650r to be 277 or something, but they probably weighed it without handlebars or something...).
  17. mtothef

    mtothef Been here awhile

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    the "oops" is all mine. sorry for teeing off. i should read more carefully. indeed you do have an nx250, far less girthy. standing down, as you were, nothing to see here... move along...
  18. clapped_r6

    clapped_r6 The Spoad Warrior

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    yeah quit threadjacking. i wants to know about the versys, the whole versys, and nothing but the versys!:dood
  19. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Now that you mention it.... I will probably start working on a business project in Croatia in November so I might have to leave Spain for good and mainly be located in Vienna again. :cry for missing the nice riding weather all year round, but :clap for a chance to really get crackin' on my never ending car/bike projects!


    Tony, count me in! The stock cast pan is a rather flimsy piece anyway. Shouldn't be that hard to copy the design since it doesn't have any baffles etc.

    I am sure you could find a few interested people between Advrider, Versys forum etc. :wink:
  20. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    This is how businesses get started! Get crackin' on that CAD file... :strum