The KaTaMaki 650 ADV project (KTM LC4 gets a twin engine swap)

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by LukasM, Apr 22, 2009.

  1. BeeDub

    BeeDub Havagoowan

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    Hey Lukas,

    I vote for making your own tank on one of the problems.

    Here is a link that goes into "The Lost Foam Technique" a bit. There are some good videos on youtube too if you search them out. Once you get all your layers on and wetted out, vacuum bag it to get all the air and excess epoxy out, search for youtube vids on that as well. Should be strong and light, and mostly, any shape you like.

    I would make it several layers of carbon fiber thick, and cross up the laminant layers a bit, 0, 90, 45 type of schedule.

    My only issue with it would be to use an epoxy that won't break down with the gas in it, somebody tell me that's possible. I think it is, because I'm pretty sure I've read about fiberglass boats having molded-in fuel tanks...

    In the end, you can probably gelcoat it any color you wish too.

    If you're at all interested in this, I can give you links to some products I've hunted down (when I get home). PM me in case I forget to check back here.
  2. SwitchThrottle

    SwitchThrottle Bring da amber lamps

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    Have you thought about flipping the motor over and learning to shift upside down on the right. :lol3

    I was thinking along the same lines as Aussie Steve with the jack shaft idea, but I've got nothin for the tank and intake issues.

    Rotating the motor back would centralize the mass, drop the output shaft, make room for the ktm tanks, and make room for the intakes, but then you are into the rear shock mount and the wide head would interfer with your ability to ride standing up.


    Your in a tough place with that frame/motor combo. :dunno
  3. sellmeyer

    sellmeyer Been here awhile

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    My vote is for a custom composite fuel tank too...

    There isn't any problem with an epoxy resin system for use on fuel tanks. Once you get the tank built, you put a fuel tank sealer in it and slosh it around for good coverage. The Epoxy resin never touches the fuel. This is how the light aircraft sector does it.

    The challenge you have to face with a composite tank is getting the design and layup schedule dialed in so that when you drop your bike you don't crack the tank.

    I want a custom set of tanks for my bike and that latter problem is what keeps me up at night...that and the 5-week-old boy!

    Go with a CUSTOM TANK!


    NEVER!!! don't go with gel coat. It cracks then looks awful. You don't need a gel coat to get a good finish on composites. A quality mold will yield a good surface; a good painter can take care of the rest with minimal effort.
  4. tileman

    tileman Been here awhile

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  5. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Your Guide

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    Aye Lucas...a sticky wicket there... I'd have done it first if an engine had fallen in my lap... sleep on this... the pieces you have might fit another engine. I rode a friends DR650 again the other day.... very acceptable vibration, a starter that always works and, after seven years renting and doing tours through Central America with them...reliable. Air/oil cooled and torque enough. I'll offer Fast Eddie Moran a drinkipoo and break out the tape measure tomorrow.

    The tank should be adjustable with heat...no? No need for heroics there. Exhaust you can do...well, just repeating things here. If you fixed everything, at great cost in agita, you'd still end up with the very important countershaft sprocket height. If it's cold where you are, I have a small shop here in Costa Rica and a machine/weld shop next door.... I have a couple LC4s....
  6. NordieBoy

    NordieBoy Armature speller

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    Somehow I don't think he wants to use a DR650 engine :D
  7. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    I've been looking at doing the same type of conversion, and the long and short of it is that you'll need to basically design an entire new cradle for the motor in order to get the swing arm pivot and counter shaft sprocket in the right relationship. Then, you can hang all the LC4 suspension bits and bobs off of it. If you're designing from scratch, you can do neat things like adjustable height swingarm pivots to change squat characteristics.

    This is really a positive.

    Also, consider tipping the engine more vertically - viewed from the left, clockwise. That should help lower the sprocket.

    When the sprocket and swingarm pivot are properly aligned, you wind up with not very much ground clearance because the street-oriented motor isn't designed with ground clearance in mind.

    How much stuff on the bottom of the motor projects into that oil pan? Can you just fly cut the entire bottom of the pan an inch shorter and weld a new floor into it? A side-view photo of the bottom of the engine would be nice.

    Nice mill - is it a Deckel?
  8. Pulasky

    Pulasky Been here awhile

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    Anyway things went too far.. U have got an engine and cuted lc4 frame... try find cheap damaged er6 frame and maybe try joine pieces of both frames to one suitable frame to engine and ktm suspention ... or buy a proper pipes find good welder and weld new frame U can make use bits from already cuted ktm frame... Engines in road bikes has front sprocet pretty high so pivot of the swing arm must be high to so in that case ground clerance never be sufficient.
  9. BeeDub

    BeeDub Havagoowan

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    Good post. Just before I read it, I thought kevlar might be a great outer layer to add, and then I saw him talking about it. :thumb

    By the way, this same guy has a couple youtube videos of working with composites as well, if I'm not mistaken.
  10. tileman

    tileman Been here awhile

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    Yep, hadn't read through the thread for a while, should've spotted them, quite good really.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tygaboy&search_type=&aq=f

    Pretty amazing to me really what someone can/could do in there own back shed really although if Lukas goes down this track ontop of everything else this bike may have more one off bits than most....!!!!!:evil
  11. SamM

    SamM Jeep Overlander

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    Lukas,
    I believe you can do this! As everyone has pointed out, the engine sits too high in the frame. Cut the front downtube just below the flat plate and across from where the cooling hose attaches. Cutting the frame there will give you more room to drop the engine down and move the bottom of the engine forward. This will make lining up the sprocket easiler. There is no way around spreading the rear section of the frame to make room for the intakes. You have a good foundation there. You may look at using square tubing and a wider swingarm. Maybe the swingarm from a KTM 950. Check it out. It may be wider and a better match for what you are wanting to do. The 950/990 saddle tanks would also solve a couple of your problems.

    Make your engine cradle with the square tubing and use 1/4" flatplate to make the swingarm mounts for either side. Many bikes use flat side plates to do this. All you really need to keep are the backbone and the neck. The rest can be dealt with. It appears that a longer backbone would probably work better. Giving you a better (further back) attachment point for the sideplates (swingarm plates). Cut the backbone and have a new tube turned to fit inside the backbone tube. You just created all the room you'll ever need.

    Trust me, I know what you are dealing with there. It can be done. Take your time and think it through. I'd also consider getting rid of the linkage and go with a simple linkless rear suspension. My Diesel KLR is getting WP 48mm USD forks from my 950 ADV. The 2008 Kawasaki KX450F trees are already fitted to the frame with a custom steering stem. The 48mm WP forks fit the KX trees perfectly. I just recently fitted a 1985 KLR600 aluminum subframe and seat to my 2008 KLR frame. We dropped more than a few pounds with that mod. She's coming together slowly but the design is solid. I'm in no hurry to finish it. Not much of the original motorcycle is left and it will be very lightweight.

    SamM

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    2008 Diesel KLR456
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  12. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    My Helmet is off to you Lukas great work, great Journey, great posting.

    I just stumble on the posting since I also have a 640 frame looking for a engine and you are saving me a lot of the home work already, in any case I have a few question for you before I continue on this "ShoeHorning" journey.

    In my head at least seems logical to start by "Affixing" the counter shaft sprocket location as close to ideal since that function is a FACT, a.k.a. it need to be where it needs to be, the rest of the brackets can be fabricated in one way or another, but the chain line and the path of moment of the chain can not be tamper, so why are you trying to mount the engine with out having it already attach (temporary) to the frame....??

    Anyway that is my question for you...:scratch

    Oh also I have a great advantage in terms of engine selection since I'm going to use the chassis for a sidecar so i can run a engine that is not exactly in center (Triple, four)

    Thanks again for the wonderful read.

    Ricky
  13. sanjoh

    sanjoh Purveyor of Light

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    Hey Lukas, I wanted to thank you for the motivation on my project. Here's back at you.

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  14. kyns

    kyns Long timer

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    NICE!:tb

    Should be fun on gravel roads.
  15. Burbo

    Burbo Adventurer

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    Hey Sanjoh, What kind of wheels and forks did you use on that ninja dirt bike?
  16. Mezo

    Mezo Banned

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    Sorry mate ive been busy with my own thread, she`s tight alright, but we like it tight eh :evil


    I will go to bed tonight & give it some deep deep thought Lukas.

    But to be honest i think you have the solution already :deal

    Mezo.

    :lurk
  17. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Guess it's long overdue that I chime in again.

    Lots of good ideas and helpful links posted guys, I appreciate that a lot! I have done some more soul searching and tinkering (thanks to Chris H. I had access to a complete 660 Rally - it had just done Paris-Dakar in the Heroes Legend so it was still a bit dirty - to see how my pieces are actually supposed to fit together), and still think this project is feasible. Just a lot of time and effort, in fact more than I can commit at this point. Open issues:


    As some of you have suggested I rotated the engine clockwise and dropped it a bit in the frame to align the output shaft with the swingarm pivot. This makes the oil pan stick out below the former bottom rails a bit, but as the rear frame rails are at their widest at this point, I think it gives the chain enough clearance even with the engine centered right to left. I won't know for sure until I can figure out where the exact centerline is, though... If this works, it would be a matter of limiting the travel a bit so the bike doesn't bottom out, and maybe using shorter suspension links to jack the rear up a bit. In total about 2-3" should do, if I wrap the new bottom rails around the oil pan instead of under it, so that they are just slightly lower. I will also have to look at what parts protrude below the oil pan flange, maybe there is some more room to be gained by fly cutting the pan and welding on a new bottom as Roadracer Al has suggested.

    However I won't be able to get around making some custom fuel tanks, as I had feared the split ones from the rally will be way too wide because of how much wider the twin is:

    [​IMG]

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    And here is how wide it's supposed to:

    [​IMG]


    The way I would go about this is to mask off the side of the frame once the engine is mounted and fiberglass over it. This would give me a custom molded inner flange, which I could join up with a copy of the outer shell of the Rally tanks. Then lay them up in carbon/Kevlar/fuel proof epoxy. Of course I would lose quite a bit of capacity, but with 24L rear tanks this is not really a concern. The outer appearance and width would be mostly the same, and I could keep the mounting points for the front fairing in the right location.


    Something else not that simple to solve is the interference at the head intakes. The dual Kawasaki throttle bodies are way wider than the frame and subframe:

    [​IMG]


    There is no room to place them below the rails either, even with the engine dropped a bit:

    [​IMG]


    If I made some longer inlet tubes to get them above the frame rails, they would stick into the area where the seat is:

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    As I had mentioned earlier, I think the only solution is to custom make a 2 into 1 adapter (with injectors in each elbow) and use a single throttle body in between the existing frame rails. It should end up in the lower part of the big black bulb of the Rally airbox seen here:

    [​IMG]

    Again doable, but a lot of extra work as this means an entire custom fuel injection system (the stock Kawasaki ECU will not know what to do with a single TB). Due to the angles I am not sure how well it work work either. Going to get in touch with Mezo's brother about this, if he takes after their late father he should be a bit of a porting/gas flow wizard as well.

    So A LOT remains to be done.

    And then, while googling motorcycle frames to get some inspiration, I came across this tempting picture:

    [​IMG]


    That certainly looked attractive! Similar layout to a KTM LC8, with linkless suspension, a trellis frame, but enough room for a parallel twin (LC8 is too narrow). Turns out it's from the small BMW twin bikes with the 798cc Rotax engine. While I had a brief ride on one previously, I was scheduled to test one for an entire weekend a month later. As luck would have it though, I stumbled across this bike a bit before that: 2008 F650GS with a few upgrades, one owner, 5k miles, and some "light" front damage:

    [​IMG]


    I had just finished fixing up the ER-6N I originally bought as a donor bike, and sold it with a good profit. So of course instead of putting the money aside, in a weak moment I gave in to temptation and picked up the Beemer.

    In the mean time I have had my weekend with the F800, and must say that it's a fun bike. Good power but not overwhelming, and very smooth at higher speeds on the highway - exactly what I was missing in all the singles. At the same time the weight and bad suspension scared me in the dirt, even more so than the big KTM twins do.

    So for now I will have to put the Katamaki project on hold. I want to put some WP forks (mostly figured out already), 21"/18" wheelset and an upgraded shock on the Beemer, to see how I like it in that configuration.

    [​IMG]


    If the overall chassis works well, I might just use that as a base for a proper build up instead of the LC4 frame. I have to admit that I am doubtful it will work as well for me as the Versys engine in the smaller frame would....

    Lukas
  18. mousitsas

    mousitsas Long timer

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    :huh

    Why didnt you use the ER6 frame and engine to do that project and went to the heavier F800 platform?
  19. tileman

    tileman Been here awhile

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    Love your work and ideas, hard to keep up at times but inspiring all the same......can't wait to see your custom tanks if you ever get around to it.

    Speaking of tanks, whats your thoughts about the "safety" of the tanks? I am planning to build some for my DL once I get home but thats to only thing that I have a concern about (disregarding my ability to build them). How are you planning the tanks in regards to a crash? I am assuming that since your after a light weight bike that crash bars are out........

    By the way, keep up the ideas
  20. Mezo

    Mezo Banned

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    Good luck Lukas :D

    I sent him an email saying you would be in touch, i said you was a nice chappie & all.

    He`s pretty flat out right now doing his body off restore for the show at the end of the month, but i did have a think & i thought why not change it to sidedraught with shorter/stumpy throttle bodies.

    From what i can see from the above pic (squint) the inlet castings turns upwards to the rubber boots correct ? a semi downdraught setup, could you machine that angle off (redirect) to a sidedraught & then fit compact throttle bodies with a pair of K&N`s or was you offroading the machine & needed to use an airbox?

    [​IMG]

    Had a look again, will it hit the starter motor Lukas ?

    Mezo.