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Discussion in 'Racing' started by g®eg, Nov 27, 2012.
Sorry didn't see it without my glasses
The NASCAR I see on my TV has plenty of looooong runs where the car aren't fighting for anything. All they're doing is conserving fuel and tires and knocking down laps.
That's one of the things that's killing viewer interest.
What killed it for me was the COT. If they want me back they can bring back "stock cars" !
I like the last bit. That's the spirit!
Not half the race. Arguably, around lap 39 or 40 (out of 65) when Vettel takes 2nd from Hamilton. Less arguably, lap 44 when Webber emerges with the lead on the last set of pit stops. That's probably when Vettel decided he'd ignore team orders. He took a bite from the apple on lap 44.
Massa made two excellent passes to go from 7th to 5th, his last move coming around lap 52 or 53, I think.
I know you prefer bikes. Are there no bike races where the guy's just holding onto his position with no hope of catching anyone in front of him? Seems to me I've seen a few (admittedly, I only watch in the most casual way.)
"As for what Alonso did last year in the Ferrari... He did not win, even I can do that."
Apparently you can't keep track of the verbal diarrhea you spew.
Massa works for the Italians. They haven't completely lost sight of the sport. Plus, he was the only Ferrari left, fighting for scraps. On a related note, I don't fault Alonso for staying out. He's a racer; he pushes the limit, sometimes too far.
Motorcycles are self-evidently better. Duh.
One important difference: In motorcycle racing, there is no pit-to-rider radio, so no self-important engineer or principal telling the rider what to do every other lap (bless you, Kimi!). The rider is left to use his own judgement, an essential delegation of authority anathema to the corporate world, and F1.
They soft-pedal it to conserve fuel and or tires just like F1.
I hear Sprint cup drivers talk about "saving it" for the end of the race, and taking it easy for the middle 300 miles.
Come on man, I stated Alonso lost the WDC to Vettel and I could lose to Vettel too! That does not equate to me claiming to has won as many championships as Alonso ! Unless your claim is we both did not win, or we both won zero championships in 2012... If that is the case what would be your point in stating that.
Why based on that do you call me "stupid, idiotic and claim I spew verbal diarrhea" when I have been nothing but polite to you sir ? It is you who has missunderstood plain english and taken some of my posted out of context.
That being said, all is forgiven, clearly you are the better man for insulting me... Again!
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming!!!
Who believes Webber had this comming to him based on Turkey 2010, Sliverstone 2011 and Brazil 2012 ?
You know? Your first post in this thread was pretty good (quoted). The rest have pretty much sucked.
Don't these guys in F1 only get a certain number of engines for the season, otherwise they are docked points? I think its 8 engines. That's why the Red Bull drivers were instructed to dial it back and conserve the engines... but I guess Vettel ignored that and went for the win. Conversely the Mercedes drivers, given similar orders, did what the team wanted them to do and held their positions.
Vettel is obviously a great driver, probably will be one of the greatest of all times, but he's clearly not a team guy... he does whatever he wants, and that really pisses Webber off
On the second chart, untick all except the two protagonists.
Observe the gap between them from laps 35 to 42 increasing from 2.69 to 5.73 seconds. Clearly, vettel was slower than Webber in these 7 laps. This must have been weighing heavily on Vettel prior to the start of his move immediately prior to Webber's pit stop. Anyone have data on how long the pit stop took?
The other consideration is how many laps in this race Webber was in the lead for prior to L45 - substantially more than Vettel.
The entire list is here. Overall, Webber had quicker pit stops than did Vettel. Here's the list, only down to 4th stop for the Red Bulls.
Driver / Team / Pit / stop time / Gap / On lap
1 Mark Webber Red Bull 20.736 19
2 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 20.757 0.021 42
3 Mark Webber Red Bull 20.767 0.031 43
4 Mark Webber Red Bull 20.883 0.147 31
5 Sergio Perez McLaren 20.894 0.158 22
6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 20.970 0.234 47
7 Mark Webber Red Bull 21.010 0.274 7
8 Jenson Button McLaren 21.028 0.292 21
9 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 21.079 0.343 22
10 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 21.135 0.399 5
11 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 21.202 0.466 42
12 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 21.271 0.535 41
13 Sergio Perez McLaren 21.338 0.602 33
14 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 21.339 0.603 22
15 Sergio Perez McLaren 21.366 0.630 54
16 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 21.465 0.729 21
17 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 21.482 0.746 32
ps I said earlier the race was 65 laps. Dyslexia. It was 56.
Occurs to me Red Bull could make a point by demoting Vettel to a Toro Rosso in China.
Ricciardo or Vergne could have his way with Hungry Heidi.
Vettel would get to show whether he really is bigger than the team.
And we get to watch - it's win-win!
(Sad thing is - or happy if you're a fan: given some luck, Vettel might still lead home all three other BullToros.)
Team ordered finishes are a bad idea, not just in hindsight but in foresight. Like herpes, they just won't go away.
Horner made a very bad call. This is the primary issue. Now his team is stuck with the unintended consequences. This is as it should be.
Vettel's decision is secondary. The consequences for him should reflect that.
Ross Brawn is far worse. His history with team ordered finishes is epic.
Ecclestone needs to back up his barking about this, with a bite.
I believe the commentators said that in his career, Ross Brawn has a combined 17 Driver's and Constructors titles.
Christian Horner has at least 6 driver's and constructors titles.
That's 23 titles between them. I hope I'm not being too bold when I suggest that it's possible that these men know what they're doing.
Brawn gives a thorough explanation for his team orders. Bottom line, they short fueled both cars to make them lighter and help their pace. It got them 3rd and 4th, which is massive. But it meant they couldn't play games at the end.
F1 is all about strategy. Not just race strategy, but season strategy. With the speed things happen behind the wheel the driver has no time to think strategically during the race. That is why there is a trailer full of people who are well paid to do the data analysis and make the strategic decisions.
Team orders are a reality of the sport today.
How was Horners call a bad one? At the time Webber was in front and quicker with better tires. They were way ahead of the Mercs. So he could safely assume that if both drivers dialed it down there would be no change in positions and the engines could get some extra hours for the future.
Vettel basically said fuck you to his boss! I agree, the consequences should reflect that!
You are basing your opinion of Horner's call on how you think the rule book should be and not on how the rules are in reality. In reality team orders are OK by the rules. In reality teams are chasing constructor's points, because that's where the money is. In reality the team boss's decisions were in the best interest of the team goal ($$$... and don't kid yourself, its all about $$$. If some Glory and personal goals come along with the package, all the better). In reality team orders are a strategy to achieve this.
The teams were doing exactly what they needed to do. Vettel decided to forgo this decision and raced for his own personal goal. He decided his own goal was more important than the team goal (and then pussied out in admitting in later). That's all there is to it. What consequences come from that are up to team management, what priorities the team place on various goals moving forward and how they think the path to the team's goals can be achieved under current circumstances.
Whether we like it or not the teams are all about $$$ and will use the rules to there fullest extent to get there. If you don't like the rules (or the quality of racing resulting from the rules) fine, but that is a different argument.