The time has come... Neduro DID Dakar!

Discussion in 'Racing' started by neduro, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. barrier

    barrier Says who?

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    Wish I was that good on my 530 that I could feel the shape of my Mousse!!:lol3
    The WHEEL would have to be square for me to notice!!!:rofl
    Go safe Ned!:clap
  2. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    Update, 10/30/2011- A new great benefit (the other ones have never changed)...

    [​IMG]

    The great folks at Layer Cake Wines heard about what I was doing, and as longtime Dakar fans, they were excited to help out. We decided the best way to do that was to share the joy by sending you wine! My apologies for non-US folks, but the legalities associated with exporting wine are beyond what we can manage. Race supporters will each get 3 bottles, Sponsors will get 6. One more nice perk, and a big thanks to the LCW crew. Look for it at your local shop, ask for it by name!
  3. drc42

    drc42 Rally Dreamer

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    Nice! A bunch of us get together each year for a Dakar party. Will have to save mine for that and have a toast to you :freaky
  4. GotMojo?

    GotMojo? Long timer

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    Ned, question about these. I know nothing about them... would they work for rides like the TAT, or are there disadvantages to them compared to standard tubes? Always wondered why more people didn't use these, especially since they eliminate the hassles that flats can cause on long off-road rides.
  5. Tomaz

    Tomaz Adventurer

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    I put my signature under this statement !
  6. Beez

    Beez Given to fly

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    So I assume you're planning on coming? :evil :wave
  7. drc42

    drc42 Rally Dreamer

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    :thumb
  8. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    The only disadvantage is that they do break down over time.

    I ran a set of Michelins, in a pair of Michelin Deserts, this spring in North Africa. I think the total mileage I put on was about 3000 KM, and the rear looked like new when it came out, the front was pretty haggard, although you could have run it a bit more by wrapping it with a tube or sectioning another mousse in to firm it up. The Mefo pictured above still looks pretty good (with two more trips to Utah since that picture), so it may turn out to beat that distance.

    Personally, I would definitely run Mousses on the TAT, down Baja, or similar. I have found them to be a real advantage in light and fast d/s riding, you can leave spare tubes and tire tools at home. Even running just a front mousse eliminates most pinch flats and means you only need to carry one size tube... but I run them both.
  9. crankshaft

    crankshaft Guns are for pussies

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    Hey Ned, what's your take on the Tubliss system? I've been running it on my 390 Berg with great results and even ran it in my SE. I guess the only advantage over a Mouse is the ability to run a lower tire pressure. Not sure how it would survive a Rally though.
  10. neduro

    neduro Addict Super Moderator

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    Others disagree, but I hate Tubliss. I've run it on my own bike, and fixed it on many other bikes that I was riding with, when either the inner tube failed or the seal between the red bit and the inside of the tire when pear-shaped. Suffice to say, I believe you still need tire tools and a tube and pump with Tubliss installed.

    A plain old tube is simple and cheap and light. The point to me of anything other than that, is to not worry about flats and to protect things from damage. Tubliss does not accomplish either of those goals consistently in my experience. I think Tire Balls are a decent solution, but not ideal as they pop and can feel strange on the wheel.

    The Mefo mousse pictured above just came out tonight, from another front tire being worn off around it, and it still looks the same. That tire suffered some punishment in Moab, which has some very square edges that I hit pretty damn hard, but they left no splits in the mousse beyond the trivial ones pictured. Very impressed!
  11. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Been here awhile

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    I tried them on the Tuareg Rally this year. Front started leaking the second day (2x400km of high speed pistes). Rear did not make it the 4th day. No more tubliss for me on hard surfaces, back home (only sand) it works great.

    Very interesting topic, keep it going.
  12. crankshaft

    crankshaft Guns are for pussies

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    That's funny, my experience is the opposite as usual:lol3 Two of us rode all through Moab last October on Super Enduro's and not one flat. We did Poison spider and Kane creek among other trails and no issues. We took the nasty part of Kane creek with the ledges and the Tubliss worked great! Love Moab!

    One tire iron is all you need to swap the Tubliss around, but I've been running them for awhile now and they're very easy at this point. I had an issue this fall at a Turkey run though. Picked up a sidewall gash in a rocky trail section and the Tubliss held the bead on for another 40 miles..... then BOOM the liner exploded:lol3 To be fair, we maintained our pace on the trails and for some reason rode faster than normal on the gravel, which probably overheated the liner, leading to the failure.



    This is a great topic, thanks Ned for the response!
  13. Yellow Pig

    Yellow Pig Allergic to asphalt!

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    What kind of mods are you doing to the D908 (cut D908)?
  14. ian408

    ian408 Administrator Administrator

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    One of the complaints I've heard about the Mefo/Michellin products is heat. When the tire heats up, they break down. Sometimes quickly.

    Would they be advisable for a 50/50 trip or would you stick with traditional tubes? If tubes, when does it make sense to go the mousse route?

    I should qualify the 50/50 as some parts of the road being high speed >50MPH.
  15. miguez

    miguez Miguez Rally Racing

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    I'm sure more experienced people will chime in, but in my research I've found that the heat problem can be well-combated with proper lubrication, although it will never avoid that problem indefinitely. It seems a lot of the heat is generated simply by the mousse rubbing against the tire, and can be considerably mitigated by said lube.

    Michelin, for example, does not recommend their mousses be used above 80 mph, as no matter how much lube you use, the heat generated will be enourmous (ever ride at those speeds for a while then feel your tire temperature?), and the mousse will disintegrate.

    I'm trying my first set of bib mousses in Utah the week of Thanksgiving, I'm sure I'll be able to report back after that with some more information.
  16. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

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    I've been using tubliss exclusively on my 300, 450 and 950 in all kinds of conditions.

    pros:
    - run really low tire pressure - great for rocks/roots and mud.
    - repair flats with a plug, and away you go.
    - zero pinch flats
    - no surprises when you do get a flat, tire stays on the bead.

    Cons:
    - probably a bit more susceptible to puncture flats. Especially fronts. Using slime helps, but I alway wonder whether or not any given flat would have happened in the first place with a heavy-duty tube in addition to the tire
    - need a pump and pressure gauge capable of 110psi
    - still need to carry spare tube and levers, plus tire plugs
    - need to be on top of the bladder pressure, as it leaks down.
    - can't run flat indefinitely, as you will overheat and destroy bladder, and then you have no rim lock


    Overall I'd say that tubliss is probably great for enduros/hares tables where the terrain is less rocky, less prone to glass/nails, and where you never are really far out of range. It's probably not as well suited to dual-sport just given the many ways you can puncture.

    If like in mountain biking, they came out with tubeless specific tires wit a slightly thicker casing, then it would be the bomb!

    On balance I still think that the benefit of running low pressure in rocks and mud/roots make tubliss a good choice, but you just have to be ready for it to be a bit finicky.

    I would definitely not use it in a rally...I'd also go with the proven mouse route...

    Flanny




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  17. Country Doc

    Country Doc Wanderer

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    All good points from Flanny. My personal data points with Tubliss are two front flats, no significant "run-flat" ability (lasted only 10 minutes), and two front flats on Flanny's bikes.

    Prior to that I was running HD tubes, one flat in 3 years. I'm back to HD tubes with no issues so far.

    I do, however, still have the tubliss on my rear tire as it has yet to fail. I like it on the back - I can run low pressures there for extra traction in slippery rocky conditions, and it seems to be more robust. All of the tubliss failures I've seen so far have been on the front tires.

    Go get 'em Ned! I'm getting excited!

    Wearing my Ned-2-Dakar shirt today! :clap

    dc
  18. hilslamer

    hilslamer 2XRedheadedstepchild

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    I don't like thread hijackers normally but given that this audience is the most likely to take this information at face value, and Ned is very busy meeting shipping deadlines, I guess I will chime in...


    Bibs and TireBalls both allow you to ride through cactus fields with abandon, charge jagged crossgrain rockpiles with total confidence(as much as you trust yourself & your suspension). This is an awesome capability that is to pneumatic tires what multiple-geared-transmissions must have been to engines on early motorcycles. If you like to ride aggressively and/or in places that drive up puncture or pinch liability, it opens up a whole new world of freedom and mobility off-road. As stated before also, you never have to carry tire tools, spare tubes, patch kits, pumps or CO2 canisters again. In my toolkit, that's over three pounds I leave at home.

    I like TireBalls because they can be reused, adjusted for pressure, and they protect rims the best of all of the solutions. Each ball is a confined space and is not made from elastic material, so when you strike anything, the ball at the strike point makes it extremely difficult for the impact device to get all the way to the rim. If you've hit something hard enough to pop a ball, or pinch it, it's nice that the ball is the "fuse" and not the tire or rim. And IME, that same strike would have cut a bib, similar to the dead ones Neduro posted images of earlier.

    Tireballs, IMO, are much easier to install, and easier to un-install, than bibs - although slightly more time-consuming. They are warranteed for a year, so if they pop or leak down, they will replace the ones you send back and turnaround is fast, IME. They make for a contact patch that, when correctly set, is longer and yet just as stable, laterally, as a tubed tire, IMO.

    Bibs never balance for me. When airborne, you can feel them shaking all over the place due to inconsistencies in the bubble density during manufacture. When on a road at high speed(but not fast enough to burn them up), they shake you & the bike to death. And, even if you balance them, they change a lot as they age/compress, IME. TireBalls balance nicely, even with a couple popped.

    With bibs, you have the same "charge anything the wheels will roll over, and suspension will eat" ability, but you can still thrash a set of rims in one race. Fine I guess for guys with spare wheels lying around or that like re-rimming wheels while they watch TV, but not for me. Also, as mentioned, bibs narrow tire choices way, way down because they are not very adaptable to the inner carcass profile. TireBalls come in different sizes but overall, conform well to most tires. I suppose if you can feel the profile of the bib makes a difference in the way the tire bites on the sides during a drift, then maybe TireBalls lack the advantage of a variable "apparent pressure" across the profile of the tire.

    The last thing to mention isn't unsuspended mass, but rotating mass. Bibs add a _LOT_ of rotating mass, at the outermost part of the wheel where it means the most. Bibs installed on an underpowered bike make an obvious and perceptible difference in all-out acceleration. While most of us are not drag racing WFO to every turn, we do need good response to pick the front end up through whoops, off the face of a jump, or to get over a log at speed, for example. Because you have these two gyroscopes spinning underneath you all the time, and bibs have 3-5 times the mass of an HD tube, the bike FEELS heavier at speed, IMO. You just can't hide angular momentum.

    In contrast, a set of TireBalls in a tire is lighter that even a lightweight, thin tube. But not as light as TuBliss.


    Tubliss has basically the same vulnerabilities as a tube, they are just lowered a bit in some ways. And it brings a couple of unique ones. With TuBliss, I have seen every failure mentioned here, with one additional failure: the stem for the inner bladder is pretty vulnerable to rock strikes from the side. They are pretty tall and the leverage of the length means that struck correctly, they snap off at the rim and it's game over, totally, at that point. In addition, cheaper brands of tires that simply are not molded right and leak where the mold lines did not meet, etc. Sure, you can use Stan's or Slime to seal them, but that makes flipping the tire to keep biting edges shape and get the most $ out of the tire a sloppy, stinky mess every time. Tubliss has a distinct advantage of losing a large chunk(huge, in the case of a either a bib or Slime'ed HD tube) unsuspended/rotating mass, and the difference in small bump compliance is perceptible but not worth the benefit anywhere outside of an MX track, IMO. And the loss of rotating mass can be felt in acceleration, especially on smallbore bikes.


    I could ramble on for more hours about it but I've hijacked enough...

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  19. crankshaft

    crankshaft Guns are for pussies

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Oddometer:
    14,024
    Location:
    Burlingtron,VT

    Well put, I've run Tennis balls in my tires before and they work very well. You can buy a case of PENN brand from Costco for really cheap:lol3 There are so many variables to also consider.... rider ability, terrain, bike set up etc etc etc.
    For the record, I've run Slime in my Tubliss tires and flipping them around was never a big mess for me, but I wear latex gloves and do the work on the lawn:lol3

    Thanks Ned for the answers, I know you're a guy that does his homework, so your opinion is worth getting IMHO. I guess I don't see this as a Hijack but a learning opportunity for everyone following your progress. Asking what you had for lunch on the other hand might be a hijack:lol3

    Keep up the good work!
  20. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,414
    Location:
    Pacific NorthWet
    Tubeless is near and dear to my heart. I love the tubeless concept I got used to on street bikes and even trials bikes. Spoke and tube seems so 1911. I've put about 90,000 miles on several Nimitz-class dualies with just spoke end cap sealing, which is the absolute least rotating mass so far.

    The pro offroad rally racers all seem to run bibs. Wonder if they get custom factory units with perfect foam density. :deal

    I've put a few thousand offroad miles of abuse on the Tubliss on an RXV550 and they were great even in really rocky terrain. I understand Flanny and Tim's pro and cons and for rally probably would not choose them either. The Tubliss does have a mechanical metal rim lock built in, in addition to the full wheel red ring bead lock -- at least the 21/18 set I bought had them. They would keep the tire on at least as well as a tube & rim lock combo I would say.

    The tire balls I've heard of for years and sound interesting, how do they hold up to faster speed on and off pavement? Do they melt too?