The Yamaha Super Tenere XT1200Z Big Thread

Discussion in 'Land of the Rising Sun: ADV Bikes from Japan' started by mr moto, Feb 9, 2008.

  1. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    I'll also relate my experiences where I've had three no-start episodes with on overt contributing factors (e.g., running briefly before, key cycling, washing, etc.). I simply pulled it out of the garage each time and attempted a normal cold start with throttle closed. In each case, when it didn't want to start after five seconds or so of cranking, I went WOT and it started fine after maybe 5-10 secs of further cranking.

    I do think previous interrupted warmups and/or key cycling without starting are definitely contributors to the problem though.

    - Mark
  2. Dallara

    Dallara Creaks When Walks...

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    See what I mean about folks getting very defensive when "operator error", etc. are even mentioned... :brow

    Honestly, no offense is intended, toward anybody. But just because you have several other bikes in your garage and don't have any starting issues with any of them doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't necessarily doing something during starting that doesn't agree with it. Lots of folks had other cars in their garage besides Audi's or Toyota's, too, that they didn't have "unintended acceleration" issues with, yet those same folks stood hard on the gas pedal thinking they were pressing on the brake pedal... :doh

    It was proven time and time again, in a myriad of ways, that despite the owners' claims otherwise they put their foot on the wrong pedal, yet they would vehemently claim they did nothing wrong - and they never had any problem like that with their "other cars".

    The point is that one should not just automatically dismiss the possibility that these "hard starting" instances as manufacturing defects of some kind. No two bikes brands are alike... They don't run alike, handle alike, sound alike, etc., etc., and you damn sure don't ride a Super Tenere like you would, say, a Ducati D16RR Desmosedici, or a Harley XR1200... I sure know I don't. You don't start 'em the same, either. At least I don't, and I own all three. They all also require quite a different starting routine than my vintage Norton Commando, or my CZ's, etc. I don't expect any one of them to, and I further expect I have to learn what each one *needs* to start, run, and operate optimally. That's my responsibility in the man/machine relationship.

    To flippantly say that any problem like this one has to be the fault of "the bike" and ignore any other possibility is to suggest that oneself is somehow *perfect* and incapable of error. In other words, you're suggesting that other folks - the ones who built the bike or its components - are flagrantly in error, but that somehow you are incapable of it.

    BTW, I have washed my bike dozens of times in the past 17 months/26-K+ miles of ownership and I've never had a starting problem. Due to some health issues mine had to sit from late September until December - over two months - without being started, ridden, or even having the battery charged... And yet it started right up. Then it had to sit again for the past month, but it started right up this past weekend and ran flawlessly for over 500 miles over two days an numerous starts. Moreover, much like GrahamD, I have gone out in the garage and tried dozens of combinations the past few days to try and duplicate the different things some folks say lead up to their "hard starting problem", and nothing... It just fires up like clockwork every single time.

    I'm not saying there is not some sort of "problem", and I am trying to find a resolution to whatever the issue is even though I don't have it. Just check out the S-10 forum thread on the subject. But I'm not about to just summarily dismiss a very large part of the equation - the rider - that could be contributing to the problem. Sure, the bike *may* be the problem, but then again... Maybe not.

    I've been messing with computers for decades, but I know when something goes wrong with one of them the first thing I think of is "What did I do?", or more importantly, "What did I do differently?" I don't just automatically assume that I'm somehow *perfect*, and incapable of error, and blame it on the machine or software.

    Just my two centavos... YPPMMV.


    Dallara





    ~
  3. Offcamber

    Offcamber Long timer

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    As my bike only has 7 miles on it...none put on by me...I haven't had an issue starting it....

    However... reading all this I can't think of how starting a bike would cause the problem....I mean what is being done contrary to the manufactures instructions that would cause this condition??

    Turn key on

    disengage clutch or shift to neutral

    ....Kill switch is in the run position...

    hit the starter...

    crank for few seconds until engine fires....

    if not wait a minute, repeat....


    What is someone doing that is causing the engine to flood...

    I'm not saying it is or it isn't opertor error, I'm saying the starting procedure is pretty simple and just about the same on every modern FI bike....so what are they doing wrong if it is operator error???
  4. Dallara

    Dallara Creaks When Walks...

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    I won't go into the entire issue here as there is a *HUGE* thread over on the Yamaha Super Tenere forum about it, with more info than perhaps you want to know on how it could very well be caused by "operator error". I'd post the link for you but it's a big no-no to post links to other web forums on ADVrider, and I don't wanna' get bounced. :lol3

    Just head on over there and look for "Have you had the hard start problem" or "Hard starting" in a couple of thread titles and you have plenty of reading, and examples, to piqued your interest.

    Suffice to say there seems some conditions and/or operator actions that can cause the problem...

    - Some have had issues after they have washed the bike, but yet they don't have any riding, or starting up, in the rain.
    - Some have said they have the problem after multiple key cycles - i.e. turning the ignition on and then off again, repeatedly - without actually starting the bike.
    - Others say that if they start the bike but only let it run for a few seconds, then try and start it again, that they encounter a problem starting back up.
    - Still others say they have a problem if the bike has been sitting for more than a couple of weeks without being ridden.

    Perhaps the most interesting thing about all these reports of "hard starting" apparently not one has happened to anyone out on the road, say, on a trip, etc. Oddly enough, it seems the issue only happens at home (or wherever the bike is stored).

    Check out the threads over on the other forum and draw your own conclusions.

    Dallara




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  5. ballheadknuckle

    ballheadknuckle Been here awhile

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    I think so too, the ecu probably injects more fuel when starting a cold engine like the choke in the old days. If you do this several times and add condensation of fuel in the intake to it which also happens on a cold engine you can flood even an EFI bike.

    Through repeated on/off cycling of the ignition during installing new indicator lights i had the problem also on another bike.

    Oh, and others had more success with not starting their bike:
    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lvMeUMgSwPQ" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>
  6. Krabill

    Krabill Long timer

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    So then please enlighten us heathen newbies the proper procedure for starting a Tenere so as to assure it fires every time. :ear

    Just so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong, this is how I start all of the fuel injected bikes I have in the garage:

    CBR1000 - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

    Vstrom 1000 - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

    WR250R - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. It fires right up.

    Tenere - turn the key on - wait for the fuel pump to stop - push the starter button. Ugh

    If I'm doing something wrong, please tell me.
  7. Dallara

    Dallara Creaks When Walks...

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    OK, first thing, let me ask you a couple of questions...

    How are your throttle cables adjusted? Specifically, did you adjust the throttle cable to remove literally all the freeplay at the throttle grip?

    Second, have you installed handlebar risers of any kind, and if so, which ones?

    Yamaha sends these bikes with a fairly large amount of slack in the throttle cable and the grip, and I have found on a couple of other brand FI-equipped bikes that if folks adjust their throttle cables to literally have zero slack and virtually no freeplay in the throttle grip that they can often experience intermittent starting problems.

    That'll get us started...

    Dallara



    ~
  8. Krabill

    Krabill Long timer

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    I haven't changed anything on the bike except added luggage, heated grips, and an electrical port for my heated gear. The handlebars are stock. No risers.

    FYI - the first time it happened was before I added anything. It was bone stock. 2nd and 3rd time were after the mods, but again, nothing major has been touched.

    I have tightened my throttle cable, but only to the spec in the service manual. There is still play in it.

    As a trials rider, I am very particular about my throttle set up and all of my bikes are set up exactly the same. There is free play in the throttle, but not much. Just enough to where nothing is binding with the throttle fully closed with the handlebars at full turn.
  9. Dallara

    Dallara Creaks When Walks...

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    I'm not saying you should adjust your other bikes any differently... Not at all. However, there have been some indications that the throttle position sensors on the Super Tenere and its "fly by wire" set-up are very particular about certain things, so you might just *TRY* backing off the cable adjustment a tiny bit to give the bike just a bit more throttle freeplay, and see if that helps. Yes, even a bit more feeplay than the service manual specs... No certainty that it will help, but it can't hurt to try it.

    You mentioned having a problem after some mods you made... When you made any of these mods did you move, shift, or significantly re-route any factory OEM electrical harnesses or leads? Reason I ask is that a European source has found that a very real and significant idling/ignition malfunction was occurring due to some mis-routed wiring harnesses. Once these were routed correctly and not electromagnetically interfering with each other everything was fine.

    BTW, I have to leave for a while so I won't be responding further until later this evening.

    Dallara




    ~


    `
  10. Krabill

    Krabill Long timer

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    Nothing on the oem wiring has been relocated.

    Some little tid-bits of information about me - I've been riding and wrenching on motorcycles for over 30 years. I started out with trail bikes, moved on to motocross bikes, back to trail bikes, and then got into competing in trials. The Tenere is my first "street" bike, but all those years riding and wrenching on dirtbikes has taught me a thing or two about bike setup and reliability. I do all of my own set up. I've *fixed* friend's bikes that have been set up by "professionals". You do not want to be in the middle of the woods and have something go wrong with your throttle cable, or your electrical system. All of my wiring is proper, tight, and secured. I've fixed many-a-bike on the side of the trail - but none of them were mine.

    I understand that as you turn the bars closer to lock, the throttle cable tightens itself up. I check for these things. Full lock left, and full lock right. The throttle cable does not bind. I've checked it. I go over everything I know to go over on all of my bikes. They are in perfect working order. I am very particular about everything. I would not hesitate about jumping on any bike I own and taking off across the country with nothing more than an air pressure check. They are all ready-to-ride. Yes, even the Tenere. I've got 10k miles on it and it's only given me trouble those 3 times so far and it does eventually start, it's just annoying. I don't leave maintenance issues unresolved. I don't skimp on anything. If an issue arises, it gets fixed immediately. The right way. There is no duct tape or tie-wire involved.

    That said, I am still open to hearing any and all theories as to why this thing acts up from time to time. If it is something I can fix, I'll fix it. If there is something I am doing wrong, I'll change it. I'm not above being wrong.
  11. GrahamD

    GrahamD Long timer

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    This is about where I am going with the idea. I had no problem on day one running through most of the common scenario's I had read about the hard start. 30 starts, doing everything "wrong" and it just kept starting. It wasn't until two days later with a slightly limp battery that it didn't start "as fast as I thought it should" and I "instinctively" let go of the button at the "normal" time and retried.

    That's when I noticed the bike was a bit gnarly. Left to sit for two days, battery not 100% and there you have a problem if you don't keep it winding until it fires.

    So I cycled the bike with the starter a few times on purpose before it giving it a "normal" crank. Then it stuffed up. You could tell it was already a bit unhappy but I had an idea that turning it over with the starter was going to be pumping fuel. I had pretty well determined that just cycling the ECU with the key switch was probably not the issue and neither was the kill switch having much effect.

    Some bikes , because of component tolerances emissions and adjustment differences are going to be a bit more susceptible to this, some aren't.

    But the sitting around after short runs seems to be one of the main indicators that you may end up having a problem.

    I have never had an issue with the bike, but I also am very "Dallara" with it normally.

    It normally gets started, warmed to at least 50C and ridden a reasonable distance. All habit. The cars get the same treatment and I have been doing the same for years.

    Just an aside, I notice that my wife has some issues starting my car because she is so used to the ECU controlling the starter that she has become used to just engaging the starter and letting go. She hasn't even twigged to the fact that it is the ECU that is deciding when the starter is stopped not her. So in my car she just gets cranky when it won't start after the 4th attempt and ...starts pumping the accelerator. Eventually the frustration and crankiness cause her to keep cranking that extra second or two. I can't convince her that pumping the accelerator has nothing to do with it.

    The other interesting part there is that Toyota have opted for an ECU controlled starter. I wonder why?
  12. GrahamD

    GrahamD Long timer

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    Don't think it's the cables. The cables on my "never had an issue" bike are the same and have not changed.

    The fact that I could induce the bike to have an "issue" by noting some of the stories out there is the issue.

    Badly adjusted cables may play a bit a role in some sensor inputs but I will leave that one alone for now.

    There may also be a combination of the most "common issue" and unrelated starting issues.

    Some people just may have a dicky radiation affected intermittent sensor. Rare but it happens.
  13. twinrider

    twinrider pass the catnip

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    No more worries about cars not hearing you, what did you have to do to get it to fit?
  14. dave6

    dave6 Been here awhile

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    A little bit of cutting and welding and its on. Signal lights will have to be changed to avoid being fried.
  15. twinrider

    twinrider pass the catnip

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    Nice to have those skills.
  16. jly51

    jly51 Adventurer

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    I have not followed this thread completly but would like to throw something out to you.I was a salesperson at a large dealership for several years,both new and used.We learned the hard way that fuel injected atv`s would load up and foul plugs if we started ,moved them shut them off with out letting them warm completly.After a week or so this the plugs foul and it wont start without a new one.When the motor is cool it is running on a rich fuel circuit,when it warms it goes switches to normal.I don`t know if if this applies to this problem but a series of short runs can starting ploblems.Hope this can help .
  17. MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly

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    Re: hard starting, as long as it starts in a few seconds after going WFO, WhoTF cares???????????? :lol3

    Of all the things to anguish about.... jeez.
  18. snakebitten

    snakebitten Small Town Hick

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    Bragged that I never had the hard start. Bragged that I never wash the bike and then start it to move it. Bragged that I never cycle the key without starting the bike and allowing it to reach operating temp before shutting it down. (~140F)

    Then, away from home, after it sat in the hangar all day, I inadvertently hit the starter button and released it before it actually fired up. When she didn't start immediately on the second try, I knew what I was experiencing. Went to half throttle then wide open over about 4 seconds time. She lit. Unhappily though.

    So, all I know is she is as reliable as Dallara's and GrahamD's if I don't do anything out of the ordinary. But I won't tempt her again. NEVER touch that button without letting her start AND run long enough to go "full cycle"

    Computers. ECU's. FI. FBWire. Hmmmmph. Combined, they are like the garden of eden. Really nice. But don't break the ONE rule they have or they punish you.
  19. GrahamD

    GrahamD Long timer

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    Most religions seem to have something to say about that :lol3

    That is part of the reason for doing it. As you are now aware :D parts of Australia outside Victoria can be a bit detrimental to your health if you get stuck.

    So I want to know the signs and solutions is it happens. I also want to know how it happens so I can avoid it.
    because of the interwebs I knew pretty much, in theory, how to deal with it.

    I now know how many times the battery will start the bike (30+) without a recharge.

    I have also short cycled, started and shut down the bike twice since the hard start and it hasn't missed a beat. :deal The only difference being the battery is now completely charged, :dunno

    And if I think back on the days of carburetors, I'm not complaining. Really. No more sticky slides, rotating venturis, pump circuits not working, linkages unbolting themselves mid corner...bla bla bla..

    I know, all operator error. :lol3

    They still sell DCOE Webers you know. :deal
  20. ~TABASCO~

    ~TABASCO~ www.rideonadv.com

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    Dave6,

    Good job on that pipe... did you post that video over here ? Maybe a few customers might be interested in that pipe and sound ? Sounds great !