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Discussion in 'Land of the Rising Sun: ADV Bikes from Japan' started by mr moto, Feb 9, 2008.
Yup its in here somewhere between all the hard starting stuff.
Regardless of "know it all" convincing everyone here that it's all in their head and they don't know how to start a motorcycle.
Sure it doesn't happen all the time. But it does happen and it's happened to mine twice and I was never a dealer, mechanic, expert cycle starter, Internet novel writer but it happen twice out of the blue. I won't bore everyone the details with my two no starts but I can go fiddle with the key on any of my suzukis and they crank regardless. Now I am certain I've opened myself up to the so said superior "know it all" who basically just calls us all idiots in a 1000 word novel of BS. I honestly don't care to engage in that stupidity. It's simple, you turn the key, flip the on off switch it either cranks or it doesn't no magic mouth help properly, no luck, no Internet help, it's basic.
Mine simply did it once while stalling up the toy hauler ramp, wot helped that time. Second time much worse. Worked on auxiliary lights one afternoon, bike was hot and had been running. I even cranked it afterward and the cooling fan was on. Week later rolled it out to go for a errand, bam it turned over popped and never fired again. 30 minutes later after pulling the FI fuse and turning it over it fired once I reinstalled the FI fuse.
So there is no problem, hmmm I'd say yes there is and it's in the electronics. Like I said I can go fiddle with both '11 model suzukis anyway I want and they'll come to life with the roar of a tiger.
But keep chasing that start procedure and I'll continue to be entertained here by it all. Some of this bs that's been spewed is quite simply that bs!!
BTW my throttle cables are loose with slack
I love Dallara. :) And he has helped quite a few folks on forums.
Don't think he is a know it all. But he definitely is a know-a-lot!
Having defended him though, I would just LOVE for him to have a hard-start!
It would make my day. (Evil grin)
And I still think Rockport drivers suck! (2nd evil grin)
Pah, that's nothing.
When I has a GSA I followed a thread on UKGSer that rambled on for weeks about the length of time the indicators (turn signals) stayed on. In the UK we have 300m, 200m and 100m count down markers before motorway (highway) exits and the discussion centered around at which marker point it would be best to turn them on.:huh
It was so sad it was funny.
We really have no problems with the Yam
I better check that. We might have a hard signaling problem as well..:huh
Hey folks.. just fitted one of these to my S10. I have a question to any other inmates who may have used one of these.. does it rest against the OEM pannier or is there a gap?
Mine came with no instructions and at first I fitted it up and it rested against the inside of the pannier.
I remounted it by changing around the "order" of where the hangers go on the bolt in relation to the grab handle/spacers etc and it now has clearance.
Is this the right way?
Good looking well made unit.
I just wonder if the hangers should be a bit thicker??
Well my bikes starts in in about 1/2 revolution of the crank.. Even with no forks installed...
But I did install the shifter zert.. Don't have to take it off and clean it any longer !
Shift lever's looking pretty rusty, you should hit it with some black Rustoleum.
Looking good Jaxon!
Why do you have that upside down plunger looking thing attached to the underside of your shifter?
That's the quick shifter.
Nah, it's a spin shifter...slow, but steady and sure.
Quite the enigma, this condition is. Just as you did, I tried all sorts of ways to induce the hard-start problem on my bike and was 'unsuccessful.' The only time I had any sort of issue was when my GPS drained the battery overnight to the point that the engine barely turned over. Then, and only then, did I experience the pop, sputter and reluctance to start. I gave'er a jump and she fired-off at WFO with a gurgle or two. I've had no issues when the battery is reasonably charged, but am not claiming battery charge state as the cause of other owners' occasional woes either.
I'm definitely not discounting what others are experiencing- just that my SA spec scoot doesn't seem to have the problem. From my experience, a Yahama of any shape or form (with a gasoline engine) seems to generally be more finicky about starting. We have Yammie ATV's at work that are a pain to start from time to time.. Same with the snow mobiles. Honda ATV's experience this type of problem very rarely by comparison. Just my observation.
I'm also reluctant to fault anybody for using an improper starting procedure when the wonders of modern technology should be taking care of this already. I owned one of the first fuel injected, production Japanese bikes (CBR1100XX). You couldn't phase that bike no matter how long (or short) you let it run or what you exposed it to. That was in 1999, so there really isn't an excuse for the issues we are seeing today.
That said, I'm comfortable with the work-around if I ever encounter what some of you are experiencing. It's not a show-stopper for me because this bike does so many things so well.
There, there, Roy...that's not all that's loose.:huh
While I agree that the technology should be bullet-proof, it is not fair to compare today's FI systems (in the USA) with those before mid-2005. From 1998 to 2005, emissions regulations allowed for open-loop fuel injection systems. As tighter regulations were applied in 2006, systems were required to add lambda sensors and function in closed-loop mode during starting and cold running (warm-up periods), before switching to open-loop mode. The closed-loop mode is where 90% of the problems seem to be coming from. Ducati, for instance, had a wonderful open-loop system on the ST2 and ST4/ST4s and the first ST3 ('05) through mid-2005. Beginning in 2006, the ST3/ST3s had a closed-loop system that was full of issues. To my knowledge, all of the fuel injected CBR-1100XX Blackbirds (1999-2003 in the USA) were open-loop FI.
Has anyone identified the closed-loop sensor(s) on the S-10? Are they still lambda sensor(s)? Can they be adjusted for those with this hard starting problem? If the control systems aren't too different, reading about the Ducati solutions in 2006/2007 might actually be educational.
 Just so that everything is the in the one spot....
There have been a few users experience the dreaded "hard start".
There is a particular set of things that have to be done to induce this.
Since I have never had this problem I was keen to see whether I could induce it by running through a few scenarios that have led to it...
This is a bit of a log to see whether I could nail down the important parts.
First day was just running through a few of the ideas that had been floating around. (sped up so it doesn't drag on too long)
20th Jan 2013
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EAkW0aaph-c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
That was a complete fail as far as the hard start goes.
But often people talk about the bike being left for a few days after fiddling or washing.
Well after 2 1/2 days of sitting without the bike being touched and that includes not charging the battery...
23 Jan 2013.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4cN7HrZ0OqE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Now it was cleared pretty easily by going for 1/2 throttle, Some go Wide open and it clears.
After the last video I gave the battery a good rest and a charge.
24 Jan 2013
Started fine. Starting to think it is a combination of a slightly flat battery, cold bike and being left after some short runs.
26 Jan 2013
Last hard tests...
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/q1Mcvoc7sgc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Pretty clear how it happens, pretty clear how to clear it. Put it down to modern closed loop FI. Also note that after the ECU "thinks" the engine has fired , probably from the initial burst of engine acceleration, it turns the headlight on. If you want to save some battery life cycle the ignition again and the headlights will turn off again. No point burning 100W for no reason. It may be a part of the problem.
All of them are together in the "sticky thread" --> Click here <--
Nice job GrahamD. Thanks.
That's just a little bottle jack under the skid plate... Just holding up the bike. Were working with Ohlins on a totally new 30mm cartridge kit for the Tenere. Should have the new forks back next week. Ill post some pictures and ride report with the new hardware.....
May I ask, why don't you just hold the start button down one time until it starts... I notice you hit the button about ten times but it doesn't even sound as if the crank is making one revolution ?
It would seem to me that there is obviously a prime 'squirt' when someone turns the key on. I would also think that the injector pulse is probably a bit longer the first few revolutions, and probably has a "fueling sequence" as in 'pulse and duration' each time someone touches the starter button... This "sequence" is probably only initialized from something like 0-10% throttle opening.. But this "sequence" might be turned off or tricked if the throttle is held wide open.
I say this because I had a Tenere here in the shop last week that had something similar with a week battery. I held the starter down and it cranked slow, then tried again, put a charger on it for a few minutes and again. I put my nose at the rear muffler and smelled like raw fuel... After a few more minutes I held the throttle open all the way and it fired up. I did hold the button down until it started. It choked a bit and then ran rough for a few seconds... It sounded like it was kinda flooded....... It had that sound and feeling of a flooded engine.
With that being said, is it possible that these hard starting situation could be because of a semi-fuel injected flooding scenario ? If the bike gets the first prime, and then goes into its normal "starting fuel sequence" and doesn't start, the natural thing is to try again......... But that is just adding more and more fuel.....
I found out last year working with the PCV & AT that the Tenere has a cold start software package in the ECM.. It goes though a different starting / worm up procedure when cold VS when its worm... We could see this on the AT maps when I thought I was seeing something strange last winter.... There is defiantly a different fuel map "sequence" Etc in the cold VS wormer weather.. And its not just when the bike starts but runs a whole different fuel map. This is not added or aftermarket, this is stock. I'm sure its adding more fuel. But what we don't know is on start up it could be really extending the fuel duration or phasing. And also it could be resetting it self each time we hit the start button or turn the key on or off.. Try it, I bet you will smell lots of raw fuel in the muffler.
So, to recap, if its cold, and people hit the started several times I have a feeling, or my thoughts are this seems to be more of an 'over fueling' on start up sequence. It seems the only way to trick the computer is to quite possibly hold the throttle open to turn this fuel off. *** also, when you hold the throttle open you are NOT holding the butter flies open on the throttle bodies..*** These are all computer controlled by the ECM.. This is not cable operated. IMOP, This is a software issue, not a hardware problem. The old days you would be holding open the butter fly and alow in a ton of air to off set the extra fuel, more times than not it would fire up. On this bike its software and sensors, not cables and parts, per-se. We are not in control of this motor, the ECM is... Our riding experiance is a relationship with sensors and software.
These are just a few thoughts I had and wanted to throw on the table to try and help the crowd..... On my bike I touch the starter for less than one second and she has always just fired right up on a dime....
Will the 30mm cartridge kit require special Ohlins springs?