Third Oil Filter on an LC4

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Ian640, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Ian640

    Ian640 Been here awhile

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    I believe the 660 rallye LC4s have 3 oil filters and considering fitting a third to my 640LC4-E. Anyone done this? Would appreciate comments on the following:

    Possibility of increased engine longevity.
    Possibility of increased intervals between oil changes.
    Increased time to carry out an oil/filter change. Is additional bleeding etc. involved? Perhaps 660 rallye owners can shed some light on this.

    Thanks in Advance.
    #1
  2. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Looks like two in this drawing. The standard right side drop-in, and a E-Z access remote instead of the bottom of the downtube spin-on.

    Attached Files:

    #2
  3. Ian640

    Ian640 Been here awhile

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    #3
  4. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Took it from KTMTalk. It's for the only year they list the 660 Rallye... '03.

    I recall someone a few days ago, commenting on the "toilet paper" filter above the starter on a 90 something bike... now I know what they look like :D

    Cheers back at'cha
    Creep
    #4
  5. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    Man, I thought two fiilters was one too many, and you're looking for a way to add a third!

    - Mark
    #5
  6. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    No kidding! I just change my oil more often than KTM recommends... and that's probably being obsessive :eek1
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  7. ram1000

    ram1000 Long timer

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    I'm thinking of not changing the one on the lower side case anymore, and just changing the spin on. Seems to me that if you changed that more often you would have the same effect as having three filters.
    #7
  8. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    I believe that combustion chamber leakage contamination of the oil is more of an issue than metal and clutch particulate contamination is. As chemical contamination is uninhibited by the filters, the only way to reduce the detrimental effects of premature oil viscosity and additive degradation is by more frequent oil changes.

    But hey... that's just me :D

    Creep
    #8
  9. Mack

    Mack Gone, but never forgotten. RIP, Mack...

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    I would think that if like Creeper you just changed the oil early, and changed the filters every other oil change things would be just fine. If your really concerned, why not perform an oil analysis, and find out what is really going on with your oil. (With the exception of possible fuel dilution issues on a model of bike with EFI the few oil analysis I have seen show the oil changed out at the Mfg's recomended interval was basically as good as new oil. (All non-LC4 bikes) In closely following oil analysis of synthetic oil used in MB turbo diesels, owners are finding that they can go twice the mfg interval, and the oil analysis comes back showing the oil could probably go another 50% longer yet. (I know this may not relate to these motors in anyway, but still it demonstrates how good modern synthetic oils are.)

    I have temp tabs mounted on the oil resevoir and side cases of my bike, in three different areas, so long as I do not see a high temp indication, I change the oil at or before KTM's suggested interval, and feel quite secure in doing so.

    When it comes to engine longevity, if anything the bearing, starter and cam/water drive issues are the ones that concern me.
    #9
  10. ncfitton

    ncfitton Summit Adventurer

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    yes, my '94 lc4 has the standard filter on the lower right side engine, and a toilet roll filter behind the engine above the gearbox. but it does not have the spin on at the bottom of the downtube.
    #10
  11. Ian640

    Ian640 Been here awhile

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    Yes, it'll mean additional time and cost for oil filter changes, but the more you do the quicker they get.

    Here's the reasoning behind my original question:

    1. I prefer to travel light, so I want to avoid carrying filters and oil. An option is to fit reusable filters. Any thoughts or experience of these?

    2. It's difficult to buy fully synthetic oil in some parts of the world. For example, the last oil change I did away from home was in Niamey, Niger, where the best I could find was semi synthetic.

    3. If at least some of the rally LC4s have a 3rd filter, then why?


    Re: starter and cam/water drive issues.

    What are these issues, as I had a water pump seal go once. Any mods or upgrades to prevent them?

    Cheers.
    #11
  12. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    I would think that the Rallye has the downtube filter relocated in order to speed up changes (seconds count for them). Are you in that much of a hurry?

    I too am interested in the reusable oil filters, like Dual Star carries. My mechanic doesn't like them but I didn't quiz him too much on it. Maybe someone around here has experience with them. It would be great not to worry about finding filters in the lonely places of the world. but what about the second, and third if you are successful, oil filters? I haven't seen reusable models of those...

    I would also guess that the Rallye has three because they need more protection for balls to the wall racing for days on end. If that is not how you drive, maybe you don't need three oil filters.

    What water pump? :lol3
    #12
  13. ChrisC

    ChrisC Amal sex?

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    WTF???

    Uninhibited....degradation....detrimental :deal :deal :deal

    I'm going into a semantical coma.........

    CC
    #13
  14. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Ah... my evil plan to put the world into a coma has begun... with "subject zero" :evil :evil :evil
    #14
  15. ktmnate

    ktmnate Long timer

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    I'm With Mack and Creeper,
    I just change my oil more frequently. However, If on a long trip, I would just change the oil in the crankcase and the paper filter. I have talked to the service guy at the local dealer about just doing the crankcase and not the downtube. He said it's better than not doing anything. Plus I wouldn't have to bleed the damn thing.

    About the re-usable oil filters. Some of the ktmtalk members are using the Scotts oil filters with great success. I have yet to do any extended travel in 3rd world countries. Most of my travels have been Mexico and the USA.

    Now about that diagram that Creeper put up. I think I want that Oil cooler! Does anyone have the dimensions? For my kind of riding, it would be more usefull than another oil filter. It would give me more oil and keep it cool.
    #15
  16. Happe

    Happe Offroad Nut

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    Hi Ian,

    You're right. The Rally's have three filters.
    The two normal Lc4 Filters and the extra fine filter from the old SC models. Nicknamed Toiletroll because it looks like a roll of loopaper. :D
    This is made to have more oil for better cooling.
    You will still have to change it at least every 5000Km.
    It will not change anything in the procedure or intervalls.
    #16
  17. Ian640

    Ian640 Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the replies all. At least it's stimulated some debate.

    Re: Why is the third filter there? The mechanic who looks after my LC4 is also of the opinion that the third filter is there due to the day long racing conditions.

    A shame it doesn't increase the service intervals. I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing, and that was using semi-synthetic oil.

    Re: Reusable oil filter. Have a glance at the Scotts Performance website www.scottsperformance.com.

    Re: Fitting an oil cooler. It's proportions can be judged by having a look at the front of a 2001 onwards 660 rally, but perhaps an owner can help out here with precise dimensions.

    The problem would be where to locate it due to the different fairing on the 640 Adventure. I guess at least a low level front fender would be necessary.

    Cheers.
    #17
  18. Happe

    Happe Offroad Nut

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    Hi Ian,

    we had this discussion "How to increase the Oil change intervals" the other day in a german forum.
    The 5000Km intervals are a suggestion from KTM.
    If you run your Lc4 in a competition you might change the oil long before 5000Km. In some situations it might be not possible to change it at 5000Km.
    Than change ASAP. Even if this means 7000Km. This will only happen on a long journey. On this rides you are riding much more sensible than in a competition. :thumb
    If you don't plan to compete in the Dakar or an other long distance Rally, you will not need a oil cooler or third filter.
    Another point is, one of the two oil pumps in the rally bike is bigger than on the production Lc4 engine.
    If you try to expand your lubrication system with a third filter and an oilcooler you will need this bigger pump too. The filter alone will work without changing the pump. Cooler not.
    BTW. I have a spare fine filter laying around. Interested?? :evil
    #18
  19. Converted Soul

    Converted Soul On the search dude

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    " I stretched to 6000km in Africa without the motor failing,"


    What do you expect? That it seizes up at 1 km over the interval? If the oil doesn't get to hot and the piston rings are oke (so the oil doesn't get polluted with fuel) then the oil in a 640 engine can probable do 30000 km/20000miles between changes. 5000 km is really ridiculous. In commercial engines (like big generators, crane engines, trucks, ..) oil intervals are much longer then in consumer vehicles. Why? Because in commercial engines the oil is lab tested, and the service intervals are determined by the lab results. We, as consumers, are scared into money making deals between vehicle manufacturers, their dealers and oil manufacturers.
    Tiny service intervals are only beneficiary for the dealers, manufacturers and oil companys, not for you.
    KTM gets money (or lower oil prices) from Motorex for kepping up with the tiny services intervals, dealers are glad to sell KTM's because a week later they can already rip you for a oil change.
    #19
  20. Happe

    Happe Offroad Nut

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    Hey Meat,

    On the Rallys like Dakar or Optic etc. the oil is changed in the evenings after the race. There is no hurry at all.
    You will never see somebody changing oil during a race.
    The factory Teams are changing oil every day.
    The private riders sometimes didn't change at all. :eek1
    #20