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Discussion in 'Land of the Rising Sun: ADV Bikes from Japan' started by Jersey, Nov 15, 2012.
Thoughts which is better off road. Not the 800xc the 800r or tenere.
I wouldn't drive a 800 off road (At least around here) no comparison besides the weight savings going to a 800.
There is no Tiger 800R. Unless you are talking about the Tiger 800, which is nicknamed "Roadie".
Regarding off-road: I wouldn't want to ride either off-road, but if I absolutely had to, I'd take the one that is 50kg lighter.
The ST isn't terrible off road, just terrible picking up from the ground SOLO
That's the problem with the big girl, it makes it easy until it comes to a stop. Then you realize what you are riding.
I wouldn't want to be picking it up 20 times a day, but without panniers and crap it's not as hard as I thought.
On the other hand if you weigh 50Kg it's probably too much bike for you.
The S10 is a giant dirt bike in it's weight distribution, balance, geometry. It's just the GIANT bit that seems to put people off.
It does take time to get over the intimidation factor. Not everyone can.
On the other hand you can do graded dirt roads on nearly anything.
From my perspective: I do real off-road on a WR250R and I do it carefully. I plain don't want to do it on something as heavy and cumbersome as the Tiger or the Super Tenere. Waste of money and energy. If you're talking dirt road: doesn't matter. A R1 can do it.
Off road or off pavement? All but groomed jeep trails either bike is fine. More serious "off road"
Then sure the lighter is better argument holds truth. I've not found a regular riding trail that I wouldn't
take the Tenere on. A few WTF was I thinking too.
How big are you?
Smaller guys seem a little intimidated by the thought of having to pick up the Tenere. I've not
ridden the 880r, but been on rides with one and I was on a Tenere. Who knows if it's rider or
bike difference?, the Tenere ate it up. Never saw it on the pavement either. What are you going
to use it for the rest of the time? Two up, a lot of slab, loaded? If you're buying either one for
long off road use I'd look at another color.
I got tired picking up my WR250R after about the 10th drop in two miles in clay mud ... I don't even want to think about getting into this shit with a heavier bike. And I had no trouble picking up my R1200GS in normal conditions.
cug. No one is arguing that when it comes to "the one bike that has the most chance of getting across anything" that the S10 will be a long way from 1st choice. That would be a 90Kg trials bike most likely.
If we were on a trials bike forum then your fat pig WR250 would be considered a real liability.
What I am trying to say is that in terms of geometry (the way the bike is set up) 28Deg Rake etc. Where the weight is kept, the engine characteristics etc are a lot like a dirt bike except it's a HUGE one. I am not talkng about absolute ability to get to the gnarliest places on the planet here, I am talking about how natural it feels in less than ideal conditions.
I have ridden light off road on a variety of bikes from light sporty bikes to the S10. The S10 by far feels the most relaxed even though it is 90Kg heavier than the sporty bike simply because it is set up that way.
The price you pay for that is the lack of pinpoint precision and fine control you get from a sports bike.
There is more to it than weight or the size of a front wheel as you know.
You can add other bits and pieces to the list as you go around the bike, but essentially the S10 is a Touring bike that will take you down even the crappiest "roads" you may encounter, hopefully dry, allow you to cross deep water crossings without drowning the bike, because they have a high intake facing backwards, Radiator out of the way from mud and debris so no worries about clogging the radiator, enough clearance to negotiate reasonable erosion humps and rocks and hopefully spit you out on to the highway after you have finished camping overnight and be comfortable on 500 mile journey home on the slab.
If you want to do 50miles slab and 600miles cross country I wouldn't take an S10.
So I agree with you.
But the S10 is not a tarmac queen dressed up to make it look trendy. There is way more thought gone into the bike than that.
If those two are the only two you are considering then take the 800. No matter what brand of 800. Weight is everything off road.
I don't disagree. Instead I fully agree with you.
The Super Tenere is a bike that does the adventure style riding (which maybe 5% or less of the owners actually do) pretty damn well for its size and weight. But so do a lot of other adventure style bikes. Maybe the Tenere does it slightly better, maybe slightly less good - but the differences aren't big enough for me to consider taking any one of these trailies (other than maybe the F800GS and the KTM 990) on a real off-road ride.
My main issue is that people who say they want "off-road capabilities" very often don't do more than a handful of miles "off tarmac" and even those are easy gravel roads or similar. If people are really honest, miles off tarmac are very likely in the less than 1% range ...
And if somebody asks for "off road", I think of something else than the nicely graded gravel road. I think of stuff where it's fun to take a WR but for the hell of it I wouldn't take my Tiger because I don't want to foot the bill fixing it after many drops on tree roots, rocks, creeks, mud, sand, and whatnot and I don't want the frustration, the exhaustion, the risks, and so on.
Between the two mentioned bikes, for what I consider "off-road" they are very likely close to equally matched. The Tenere has way more thought put into making it cope with the type of riding, the Tiger Roadie is significantly (> 20%) lighter. But I really wouldn't want to take either bike to something I consider off-road. And if there are differences between the two in capabilities, I think most riders will never be able to explore and experience them because the rider's capabilities are so much worse than the bike's.
I bet I can navigate a street bike like the Suzuki TU250 easier through really rough terrain than I could with a KTM 990. Reminds me of Long Way Round when Claudio was riding circles around the two BMW pigs when he was on that little UJM in Mongolia (Or was it Russia? Don't recall exactly.)
Thx for the thoughts I'm just thinking what my next bike will be down the road. The way I'm abusing my wee it might not be that long. Boy that sounded bad but you know what I mean. I like all types of ridding with a occasional jeep or atv trail once in awhile for a challenge. I ride a hour on the interstate to get to good twisty roads and I'm always looking to explore and ride forest gravel roads too. But I'm thinking too which bike would take me further on rough roads or trails.
Those are your "sometimes" days, but what about the other 6 days a week?
You will like the 800 better in the twisties as well. It feels less top heavy. They both have great balance though.
I never found that the Tenere feels top heavy. For sure, it feels a bit heavier when getting on / off, and a lot heavier when moving around with muscle power, but top heavy is not an attribute I have seen on the Yamaha.
The Tenere also has better suspension out of the box, so depending on skills or recklessness (90%), road quality (5%), weight (3% while moving), power (1%), tires (1%), this might or might not be true.
The Tenere is the more "forgettable" in a good sense. Once moving, the weight shouldn't be an issue as long as you're on pavement, it has a suspension that lets you think about other things than crappy suspension, it has a shaft which lets you forget about chain maintenance, it has a pretty damn good track record for reliability.
I guess it's the perfect bike for people who like a Honda Accord or the good old Honda Africa Twin - these things are pretty much unbreakable even with complete service neglect. They are also a little boring as there isn't really one thing that stands out on these vehicles. Personally, I like that.
For me, the Tiger feels like it has a lower center of gravity. Thats where I get the top heavy feel. Maybe I used the wrong description. Lets just say that the Tenere feels a lot "taller" to me. Very stable and well balanced but I never got the feeling of just "sinking into the bike" as it were. Its very well balanced though.
Interesting. It might be just the overall much lower weight, but it's also possible that the heavier triple engine pushes weight a little lower.
Though I also never had the feeling that the Tiger had a particularly low CoG. What I really want in a dual sport is a V-Twin. Like the old 600cc from the TransAlp. Completely rock solid engine, enough power (50HP - okay, let's get 70 out of this plant), smooth, insane reliability, very narrow engine, tank can be really low around it.
Personally I think a V-Twin is the best dual sport engine. All these parallel twins and the triples are wider and make the front end uncomfortably wide. Yeah, it's possible to deal with it, but why? What's the benefit of a parallel twin over a V-Twin? Cheaper?
Okay, rant over. Sorry for the interruption, please continue with the normal program ...
I have owned both and the Tiger is no longer in my stable. The Tiger is a very good road bike that you can take off road. Off road it never felt right, I always felt like it was going to break! The Tenere is a 575 lb enduro that excels off road. As others have mentioned it's size is a bit intimidating at first and picking it up can be a chore. The good news is the more experience you have on the S10 pig, your skills improve and the amount of time spent picking it up becomes a non issue. For me it boils down to learning to trust this big bike's capabilities and going with it.!
Mass is measure of inertia. No matter what you say guys, both S10 (more) and Tiger 800 (less) can twist themselves into knot on first considerable "off". If you would have had chance to see what happens when both KTM LC4 and S10 and some other bike of that "category" fly into same trap it would shake your confidence. While (otherwise less desirable) LC4 comes out with few scratches - the "500 lbs" category bikes come out with bent frames and forks and smashed stuff. No matter how you engineer it. It is physics. Statement about "feeling Tiger will break something" - come on it's not better or worse than S10 or GS or etc. etc. in "breaking something".
Whole comparison between S10 and Tiger 800 is a bit "off" if you ask me. They are different bikes for similar purposes.
They both will do just fine in what they meant for. They will s...ck in what they not meant for.
Damn, comparing to one of my past bikes (DR800) both are damn fragile pointless horsepower exercises and posers with no offroad abilities - so can run comparisons to no end with no much point.
Ride it, chose what you like more. Period.
I myself did not got convinced or moved by S10 in any way. Does it matter? Totally not - above posters felt otherwise. People are different.
Sounds like my life with my previous KLR's