TLR200 Troubleshooting

Discussion in 'Trials' started by UtahGuido, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    Along with the carb problems I've been experiencing I seem to have developed an ignition problem as well. I have no spark at the plug. I'm working through the troubleshooting and this evening I measured the resistance on the coil. The manual it says that the primary coil resistance should be 0.15 to 0.2 ohms. Mine measured 1.0 ohms. Loocking around on the web sit seems most coils have resistances around 3-5 ohms. So what's up do you think is up? Are the manual specs correct? Those valus seem low. At 1.0 ohms is my coils suspect? Any ignition experts in here? 'Cause I sure ain't.

    I'm hoping this is going to be something simple. I need to try a new plug but rest the wiring ought to be pretty good as I went through it all not long ago. Might have missed something though. Hopefully it's not the stator.

    If I have to replace any of the main components any thoughts on which way to go, original OEM of aftermarket? Different model of 200 engine? I actually have one of those chinese CDI units which I could wire in. But right now I'm wondering about that coil.
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  2. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Never ever had a TLR source coil fail. I would suggest very carefully checking the wiring before anything else, particularly the CDI unit earth, and obviously disconnect the kill switch to rule that out.
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  3. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    Thanks TW. I gotta think its something simple - it (the ignition) was working fine, then it wasn't. First I'll get a new plug. The Honda shop down in SLC is open today. They should have one. Then go from there.

    Got anther problem with the carb, which I finally took apart a couple days ago (I hate having two competing issues at once). I took out the main jet, with the baffle thingy, and the jet holder and according to the diagram there's a needle jet up in there too. Well in my case there was nothing up there that looked like a needle jet; certainly nothing that came out. I peered into the orifice and the hole at the top where I expect the needle jet to be was much larger that what I would think would seat a needle. What are the chances of the engine running without a needle jet? Does the needle jet sit passively on top of the main jet holder or is it fixed in there somehow?

    This thing is schooling me.
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  4. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Honda...rcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27d2cead81

    That carb will work perfectly on a TLR, and the jetting is perfect out of the box. Before buying any ignition related parts, remove the plug cap, and check for spark from end of the lead to earth. If you have a spark, then dry plug off with a gas torch, refit it and bike should then start.

    Its almost a complete waste of time fitting new parts to worn out old carbs, and one of those Ebay ones is a much better idea. I have seen all sorts of weird and wonderful suggestions to do with TLR carbs, very few of which are actually going to do much to improve things at all.
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  5. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    The needle jet is the part the main jet screws into. 16139-107-710
    So still no spark? Did you try taking off the plug cap and trimming the coil wire? The cap itself can be bad. As Twinshock (first usefull info I agree with) said double check all the grounds.
    I`ve never seen a reflex have any ignition problems other than created by the owner. And I`m the only person that I ever heard of that had a kickstarter spring break.
    I`ve got a spare spring and gasket set if anyone ever needs it! It`s only been kicking around my parts box for twenty years!:rofl:rofl
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  6. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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  7. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    Kickstarter. I fear for it the amount of time I spend kicking it over. Must be gentle.

    No progress yet today - finishing wood and doing a bit of gardening. But this evening I'll go over all the wiring, grounds, etc., and make sure all is copacetic. Then maybe take another peer at the carb. I'll let you know how it shakes out.

    Edit: And of course thank you much, the all of yuz.
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  8. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    First thing to do on a TLR which was running and suddenly stops, is to remove plug cap, check for spark between end of HT lead and head.

    If there are carb problems, then not running may be simply down to a plug which is earthing out due to contamination with excess fuel.

    Cure for this is to fit new carb, which will mean an end to problems in that area, and maybe give the bike a good service at the same time.
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  9. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    I know, the new carb route. But I'm going to give this one a shot and see if I can't get it to work right.

    As far as the ignition goes it's somewhat reassuring what lineaway said about all the ignition problems he's seen being caused by the owner. If I screwed it up I ought to be able to fix it.
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  10. nevgriff64

    nevgriff64 Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    That, right there, is a perfect Signature line for someone in this Forum. :lol3
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  11. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    Okay, I have spark. I checked all the ground connections, fiddled with the one coming out of the CDI (I need to put a new connector on this one) and got a new spark plug. Voile'! Spark. I'll see it fires up tomorrow but with a sketchy carburetor I'll probably end up fouling my new plug.

    So what do you guys prefer for making electrical connections? I like the OEM 3.5 mm bullet connectors, which it seems I'd have to order online. Or do you just use auto store spade connectors and some solder? Or what?
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  12. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    OE type connectors soldered on are probably best. Bad CDI ground is very very common, but is easily fixed.
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  13. LarryDawg

    LarryDawg trials nut

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    you can buy very similar bullet connectors from O'reillys.. I use them when I build Harleys. I pull of the plastic , solder them then shrink tube them after I make the connections, never have had a failure.
    LarryDawg
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  14. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    These guys (or this guy maybe) seems to have a pretty comprehensive selection of connectors. I like the idea of making my own wiring harnesses.

    Edit: But that can run into some dough. I totalled up an order last night that was around $100. Of course, you're getting some good raw material for modifications with that money.
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  15. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Not the only one, and are you talking about the spring that runs the compression release? I have heard of it, and not figured out how to prevent it, lol.
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  16. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Oh no, `the` kickstart spring requires a complete engine tear down!?!:eek1:eek1:eek1:huh:cry
    Happened on my wife`s bike!
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  17. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    Here's some pictures of what has me confused. The first one shows the main jet arrangement that is in my carb, from l to r: the main jet, the baffle, and the needle jet holder. So far so good. But all the diagrams show that there should also be a needle jet to the right of the needle jet holder. Does it fall out of the carb when the holder is removed or is it stuck up in there? The second pic is peering down into the orifice from whence the other three parts came shows a round shiny thing down there. Is that the needle jet? The hole diameter of whatever is down there is such that the needle passes though freely until the little shelf on the needle hits, so about 2.5 mm.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Look normal to you?

    Okay, if I attach the throttle slide assembly to the top of the carb and screw it down here's how far down the needle sticks below the jet holder orifice (throttle closed):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In other words not at all. As you might be able to tell the tip of the needle is just about flush with the bottom of the carb body where the needle holder screws in. So when the needle holder and the main jet are installed the orifice in the main jet sits about 6 mm from the tip of the needle (baffle removed for clarity, but it would add another mm or so to the clearance).

    [​IMG]


    This does not seem right to me - my thinking is that the needle tip should seat into the main jet. In the current situation the tip of the needle is nowhere near the main jet and the only thing keeping gas from getting through the main jet and into the mixture at idle and low throttle is the clearance around the needle and the needle jet (I'm assuming it's actually in there, that shiny thing in picture 2 is it). If the needle jet is worn the mixture will be rich and the plug black, which is my situation. And the needle jet does not seem to be available anymore, and even if it is how do you get the bloody thing out?

    So, whazzup?

    Hey Twinshock - got a link to that £27 carb on ebay?
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  18. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    The holder `IS` the needle jet. The little brass piece in the carb body is the needle guide. You are making this way too hard. And if you think an EBAY carb comes pre-jetted, lot`s of luck.
    Everything you needed was right here. I did not write it. I did not use it, but it is good info.
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18201544&postcount=1
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  19. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

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    Addendum to my previous post: Talking with Bob at P&J clued me that the gas supply up into the venturi from the main is regulated by the taper of the needle at the needle jet, not by the tip of the needle seating into the main. So apparently by carb and needle are set up fine. Clears that up. :norton

    Well, at least you guys can look at some neat pictures.

    Edit: Thanks lineaway. I guess I'll just put it all back together and ride it. Hopefully it runs.
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  20. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    So, yes it should run. But did you ever re-jet ? It`ll be interesting if `Bob` comes to our august event in Colorado. I met him at the world round, maybe I caught him at a bad moment. (he seemed full of himself) Usually I enjoy most trials riders, but he struck a nerve. (Sure glad he started ITSA though!)
    Our Delores event is part of Itsa`s national series this year. He was up in the air on showing up or not. I actually just wanted to ride with his son.
    #20