Trading my KLR for a Burgman 400....another talk me out of it thread

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by doogiepooch, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. hugemoth

    hugemoth Long timer

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    That certainly blurs the line between scooter and motorcycle. Too bad it's chain drive and not even an enclosed chain.

  2. vortexau

    vortexau Outside the Pod-bay

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    My opinion is that Honda has been spending the last six-seven years making some terrible mistakes in marketing- or, rather on deciding what to finish and bring to market.

    BMW are just introducing a sporty and a tourer types in the 650cc engine size maxi-scooter category.

    Just SIX years ago, Honda showed their concept that has never materialized-
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    1600 x 1200 pixel picture of left side E4-01 rear hub --- its a shaftie!

    1600 x 1200 pixel picture of E4-01 dash - it has an Airbab & integrated GPS!

    [​IMG]
    Under seat space for two jet-style helmets

    17" wheels and a 903cc inline triple liquid-cooled engine.

    Instead of THIS they marketed the DN-01, to be followed by that chain-driven Integra with 51HP (or 47HP) 670 cc a 270˚ crankshaft V-Twin engine and its 15 litres (0.53 cu ft) of under-seat storage.
  3. gec343

    gec343 Been here awhile

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    Thanks for pointing out the lack of an "enclosed chain". I've lost interest in the Integra until they update to an oil enclosed chain, belt or shaft drive. In this day and age, an open chain on a scooter seems absurd.:gerg
  4. hugemoth

    hugemoth Long timer

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    When I compare the Burgman or the Integra or any other maxi scooter to my old Silverwing Interstate (motorcycle) I just don't see a big advantage to the new designs that would justify the cost of an upgrade. Weather protection to the legs and feet are better on the maxi scoots but that difference could be minimized with fairing lowers on the old SWing. Weight, horsepower, storage capacity, fuel capacity are all similar. The SWing has shaft drive, large wheels with tubeless tires, air adjustable shocks, and easy (and low) maintenance since the engine is out in the open. EFI is nice but IMO they haven't made any huge advancements in technology in the last 30 years.
  5. JerryH

    JerryH Banned

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    I also used to own an '81 or '82 Silverwing Interstate. I just don't understand why they don't make bikes like that anymore. Not just that one, but most of the great bikes they made back in the early 80s. Having ridden several maxi scooters lately, I was not impressed. A mid sized cruiser is just as comfortable, and easier to handle, especially in parking lots. And if you get one with a windshield and bags, you have wind protection and storage space. My Vulcan 750 seems to be a much better bike than the maxi scooters. Unfortunately they don't make them anymore, and mine is about worn out.

    Valves can be a HUGE deal on a scooter. It's a 3 hour job on a little Honda PCX150. I got a Zuma 125 instead, because it is a 15 minute job. But if the Zuma turns out to be anything like my Vino 125, it has gone 25,000 miles with only one valve adjustment. But the thing is, you don't have to tear the whole scooter apart to check them. I consider this to be a design flaw (possibly done on purpose) on any scooter that requires it. More money for the dealer service department. I see no reason maxi scooters can't have hydraulic valves. Even the new Royal Enfields have hydraulic valves. They are not sport bikes. They already use the most inefficient drive system available (CVT)
  6. MarkH67

    MarkH67 Been here awhile

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    I've been on a Burgman 400 for about 4 years (2007 model) and have run up about 34,000 miles. I've never adjusted the valves yet.
    Servicing has been incredibly easy so far - I'm only on the 2nd spark plug, mainly I change the oil & filter (pretty easy job) and get the bike shop to replace tyres. I did change the belt once, surprisingly easy with an air wrench. I've replaced rear brake pads (pretty easy) but am still on the original front pads.
    My Burg 400 has been VERY reliable and has easily handled some long trips. I use it often as a city commuter and it does that job well too.

    I have gone camping a few times:
    [​IMG]

    TBH I load up with way more gear than I really need. It handles that gear & weight without any problem though and I haven't found gravel roads to be overly difficult to ride on.
  7. ArtCuisin

    ArtCuisin Adventurer

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    I think you are fond of comparing apples to oranges.

    I for one just could not be seen on a cruiser. I'm afraid of guilt by association with the loud pipes,
    fringe leather, Barney-Badass cloaked pile of obnoxious dorkdom.
    I don't have a problem with the quiet, honest scooter dorkdom image at all. :)
    In motorcycles, I have gravitated to the standard/naked ones with quiet, stock exhausts (with one exception
    in my cheap, misguided youth.) They also need to corner at high lean angles at high speeds, something
    no cruiser does as well, even the ones that do so better than other cruisers. You can't have it all?

    If the manufacturers only produced two practical bike models, to please both of us, that would probably
    leave them without many sales--few others would choose to buy them. Marketing people drive
    the world.

    I've ridden an old (CX-like) Silverwing. It buzzed a LOT, but it was old. I've chanced upon rides on bikes
    of my youth (seventies, eighties) and they all were a lot nicer to look at than ride. I believe chassis smoothness,
    engine smoothness, and handling have come a LONG way in 20+ years.

    And scooters are easier to bathe! But they are not geared toward quick maintenance. Yes, I don't
    know what the problem is with hydraulic valves, why manufacturers don't use them. I know some
    have had issues, especially when faced with dirty oil. Maybe they don't like lives above 5K rpm or so?
    I'm thinking of my 86 Goldwing. It rarely went above 5K and it had hydraulic valves. But don't
    even Burgman 650s get ridden frequently above that? My Burgman 400 certainly does.
  8. redhandmoto

    redhandmoto Been here awhile

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    heh heh heh...

    Oh, yeah; I've done that too.

    Here's why - my apples-to-oranges thinking happens because I am always looking for a contradictory combination of attributes and components from completely different types of PTWs; striving to find one bike that will "do it all" - (in my case) a retro-styled, EFI, disc-braked, liquid-cooled, bench-seated scooter - well-sprung, rack-equipped, with great back support, relaxed riding position, highway-pegged, accomodating change of leg/body position, stable and gust-resistant at high speeds, perfect for slow threading and flicking through traffic in town traffic, under three hundred pounds. With fantastic mileage. and hydraulic valves.

    In short, the perfect scoot - for me - would violate inviolable principle of engineering, physics, and manufacturing/market economics.

    The closest I ever came was a Honda PS250 Big Ruckus, but only once it was amped with a JCosta variator, upjet, and JDM scoops for extra airflow at high speeds. I will not quote what it could do on the slab - people scoff and bad feelings ensue - but it would perform that way all day long for days on end. The down side was that it was way, way too muscular for the brakes. I didn't mind that it looked like a water heater laid on side.

    Some current maxis approach my list of ideal attrubutes...but they all look like the great ocean-going mammals, and I hate that look. Retro-styled maxis - the larger BVs - in urban traffic cannot get out of their own way, are stodgy at low speeds and unhandy at traffic manuvers. The Vespa GTS 300ie Super... I had a 250 - those scoots hate passengers, the seats are intolerable, and no Italian bike can hope to have the box-o-rocks reliability of the Japanese/Taiwanese marques, nor the parts/infrastructure support. It means something that Honda is killing Vespa market share - in Italy.

    We all seem to want bikes that combine things in a way that can't be had - wherefore apples-oranges-bananas, pears...
  9. JerryH

    JerryH Banned

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    None of my cruisers have had fringe or loud pipes, though many cruiser riders go that direction, you don't have to. Most of them have been set up as touring bikes with saddlebags, a windshield, and a riders backrest. I also don't like the looks of a lot of the newer cruisers which try to copy Harley. But I don't ride cruisers for the way they look. I ride them for their comfort and practicality. A cruiser can be set up almost like a Goldwing. I have had 2 Goldwings, an '85 1200 LTD, and currently have a '95 1500 Aspencade. It is also a very comfortable bike, but sometimes more bike than I want. I had planned to trade it for a maxi scooter, but after trying out several, I decided to either keep it, or sell it outright. I didn't see the maxi scooter as an improvement. I guess I just like my scooters small. The Vulcan 750 comes in a very close second comfortwise to the GW and has about the same performance, and actually handles better. The Vulcan with hydraulic valves has a 9500 rpm redline. I have owned 2 of them, a '93 and my current '02. Between the two, I have almost 160,000 miles on them, and have never had any issues with the valves. They have been ridden mostly on the highway, at 75-80 mph.

    I'm beginning to think that what the OP really needs is a midsized touring cruiser, like the Yamaha V-Star 950 tourer. It is in the same price range as the Burg 400, and IMO more comfortable, and with better performance. I finally went down to the stealer and sat on one after this came up in another thread. I found it to be extremely comfortable, and with a riders backrest, it would be about as comfortable as driving a car. It comes with really nice bags that have more storage capacity than the Burg, plus you can use a tank bag and a T-Bag, which attaches to the passengers backrest. It has a very low seat height, and if you wanted to mess up such a beautiful bike, it should do a lot better on dirt and gravel roads than a maxi, it has more ground clearance, better suspension, and full sized wheels. It is belt drive, and the valves are super easy to get to. And, it comes with quiet pipes and no fringe, and I recommend leaving it that way.
  10. redhandmoto

    redhandmoto Been here awhile

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    naw. the OP wants a Burgie. He'll love it!
  11. doogiepooch

    doogiepooch Been here awhile

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    Wrong. :D I don't do cruisers. Hate the handling. I might be looking for a comfy tourer but I still enjoy a twistie road. Cruisers just don't handly well. TIght twisties on a curiser is like wallowing a piano up a fire excape. And I will say I'm uncertain how the maxi riding position is going to feel after a few hours. I need to hook up with a local forum memmber who has a maxi. A few guys have read that gravel road thing to closely. I was trying to say I really care nothing about offroading, I don't use my KLR offroad and cetainly woulndn't take a scooter offroad or really even down a dirt road. A more accomplished dirt rider can do alot with a KLR offroad but me, the weght of it in a tight spot make it like......well......trying to wallow a piano up a fire escape. The thing that tickels me to death about the storage on the Burgman is that you can be carrying a ton of stuff but no-one knows it. It's all hidden under the seat, no bike no matter how cool the hard luggage can't do that.

    Yep, basically this is it. Mind was already pretty made up when I started this thread, I just wanted to hear all the opinons/angles incase there was an angle I hadn't thought about. So far I haven't really been surprised or seen anything making me want to vary my path. While I haven't had double digit numbers of bikes I think I've had bikes in all the major categories. Dual sport check, super sport check, cruiser check (spent enough time on my dads to know I don't like them). after all these pages.....I still want a 400 Burg.
  12. scootermann

    scootermann Adventurer

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    Sorry, I'm lazy and didn't read this entire thread. Wondered if you have considered the Yamaha Majesty? A great 400. I only slightly tweaked mine by adding Dr. Pulley 14gr sliders (stock are 15) and the acceleration difference is noticeable. Ride in the NC mountains 2-up with no problems. Highway speeds? No problem.

    Just sayin'
  13. JerryH

    JerryH Banned

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    I don't believe Yamaha still makes the Majesty. I tried both the Majesty and 400 Burg, and found the Burger to be a bit more comfortable and controllable in tight spots, due to the too wide floorboards on the Majesty. Problem was, even with their small cc engines, neither one was really an improvement over my 1500 Goldwing. I was wanting to get rid of the 'Wing because I have severe arthritis and am afraid I may drop it in a parking lot or at a stoplight sometime. But none of the maxis felt any more secure in those situations either. I never got a chance to try out any of the maxis on the open road, which I'm assuming they would be at their best. The Majesty does have a valve adjustment interval of 25,000 miles, with no check required after break in. But according to the Majesty forums, you have to pull the engine out to get to the valves, about $600 at a dealer. 25,000 miles would be about 2 years for me. I don't know about the Burg, but if that is what you want, then I would definitely go for it. Definitely a good idea to be riding what you like, if you can afford it.
  14. Rugby4life

    Rugby4life Been here awhile

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    I bought a Majesty a couple of years ago as a daily commuter partly because of the huge under-seat storage. I enjoyed the adventure of figuring out all the things it could do well that I never thought were possible (hint, put on a set of Pirelli Diablos as soon as you get it). I just bought one of the new BMW scooters and man am I impressed. If maxi scooters keep evolving and improving the breed, I can't see why 90% of my riding desires couldn't be satisfied by it. A Ducati Hypermotard would take care of the other 10% nicely... Christmas is coming hint, hint, hint
  15. hacksaw55

    hacksaw55 Been here awhile

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    I did sort of the same. Went from a VTX 1800 which I just wasn't happy with, to a KLR 650 and really liked it. I now own a Yamaha Morphous and at 6'7" I really like it,but I think I want something bigger for trips. I've looked at a lot of the Maxi's and would go Honda or Suzuki myself, and I would buy used I see a ton of almost new scoots out there for great discounted prices. Have a great time with what ever you decide on.
  16. klx250sfguy

    klx250sfguy Been here awhile

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    +1 ... Says it all.
  17. cdwise

    cdwise Long timer

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    That doesn't match with what I've seen or experienced with either the BV 500s or GTS 250. Though my Scarabeo 500 has much more comfortable seat. All of which have been reliable except the 2007 Scarabeo but the guy I bought it from had installed a stereo and put extra switches for his speakers and it was an electrical issue I had with it. Its replacement a 2009 Scarabeo has been trouble free if you don't count the tire that blew out near the end of a 3,700 mile trip.

    Piaggio group has 32.8% of the market share in Italy (April 2012 report) in large part due to the BV and SRV which increased their market share by 1.7% since their introduction (BV 350 and SRV 850). http://www.4-traders.com/PIAGGIO-C-...-30-7-of-Italian-two-wheeler-market-15453949/ Best number I can find for Honda's market share is 18.2% while other sources report 17.85%.

    4 Piaggio models in the top 10 including the number 1 spot, 3 Hondas. Combine the two BV models and they outsell the Honda SH.

    http://www.ancma.it/uploads/Statistiche/Immatricolazioni/moto-giugno-2012.pdf

    TOP 20 Gennaio-Giugno 2012 / January-June 2012
    Marca / Brand modello / models tipologia / type quantità / units

    PIAGGIO LIBERTY 125 PPTT Scooter 9389
    YAMAHA TMAX 500 Scooter 7023
    HONDA ITALIA SH 300 Scooter 4657
    HONDA ITALIA SH 150 Scooter 4081
    PIAGGIO LIBERTY 125 RST Scooter 3445
    PIAGGIO BEVERLY 350 Scooter 3271
    HONDA ITALIA SH 125 Scooter 3000
    PIAGGIO BEVERLY 300 Scooter 2981
    KYMCO AGILITY 125 R16 Scooter 2419
    YAMAHA XMAX 250 Scooter 2302

    KYMCO DOWNTOWN 300 Scooter 2125
    PIAGGIO VESPA GTS 300 SUPER Scooter 2093
    HONDA INTEGRA Scooter 1894
    PIAGGIO VESPA LX 125 Scooter 1765
    HONDA VISION Scooter 1745
    BMW R 1200 GS Enduro 1706
    YAMAHA XENTER 150 Scooter 1559
    YAMAHA X-CITY 250 Scooter 1473
    HONDA PCX 125 Scooter 1372
    HONDA NC700X Enduro 1332
  18. redhandmoto

    redhandmoto Been here awhile

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    Well, CD, that's good, that's you. I am not surprised that our experiences don't match. My take is based on my ownership and use of the GTS 250ie. Some people shared my experiences of it, others did not.

    The GT series scoots have experienced headshake, not in all specimens, but in enough to cause wide remark. Ordinary fixes for such a thing, in weights, tire changes, headstock adjustment, have not consistently fixed it. It's enough of a question for me to wonder about the bike geometry itself.

    The seating for pillions is an Abu Ghraib Stress Position. I was not wild about the rider's seat shape, either; not the groin-splitter/Prostate Exam divide shape, or the slope. For me, these problems emerged in extended day trip riding after weeks of around town.

    As to Vespa vs Honda vs everybody else's sales in Italy, Europe, wherever, bully to Piaggio's rebound after eating it - and for no short time - upon the release of the SHi bikes. That was about the same time that the GTS 300 scoots came out to a chorus of complaints about inadequate bodywork primer and the formation of rust on brand new units, since sorted at the plant.

    As for my experience of the BV500 that I tested for an afternoon, the seat was indeed way better. It was the bike's performance in crowded local streets that I did not care for, though I am sure it would more than satisfy on the slab. It just seemed - to me - like a scooter-shaped thing with a case of Gigantism. Again, that is a personal take. Others will see and feel it their way.

    This is my experience of the scooters to hand. Many will not agree. The opinions and perceptions of all are valid - for each. The GTS was a bike I truly expected to love. I did not. Cachet, style, even many admirable elements of performance were not enough. For me. And that's why I sold it.
    And here endeth my threadjack.