Transamerica trail

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by Abenteuerfahrer, Dec 27, 2007.

  1. Abenteuerfahrer

    Abenteuerfahrer Deaf on Wheels

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,310
    Location:
    Prescott, Arizona, USA
    Is there a GPS route tool for the Transamerica trail rather than the roll chart by Sam Correro, which can be cumbersome on the handlebars? I hope Sam will introduce a better mapping device to cover the entire trail via download on any GPS.
    #1
  2. DockingPilot

    DockingPilot Hooked Up and Hard Over

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Oddometer:
    9,976
    Location:
    Andover, N.J.
    Therein lies the problem. Think about it. :1drink
    #2
  3. JimC

    JimC Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Oddometer:
    1,039
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Sam's maps (with the exception of Oregon) are good enough for you to sit down with Mapsource and the Roads and Rec or Topo Maps and create your own tracks.

    I don't anticipate Sam changing anything about the route anytime soon. Anyone who has ridden the Western TAT knows that many of the maps and rollcharts are in dire need of updates, but if you ask Sam he tells you everything is OK.

    I thought about this and came to the conclusion that this is just fine and Sam as the creator of the trail is also the custodian. There is only one Transamerica Trail and it is what it is. Parts of it are being closed every year for various reasons, if you want to experience it as close to the original as possible you better not wait. The TAT is a great adventure. I certainly enjoyed my two weeks on the trail. I hope Sam leaves it just like it is. Buy the maps and roll charts and ride the TAT, you won't regret it.

    Jim in Sacramento
    #3
  4. Tifosi

    Tifosi Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Oddometer:
    253
    Location:
    Socal
    Sorry can one of you provide a link to purchase the maps and roll charts?
    #4
  5. JimC

    JimC Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Oddometer:
    1,039
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    #5
  6. ktm950se

    ktm950se Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,385
    Location:
    Southern Maine
    Greetings,
    Roll charts aren't for everyone, myself included.
    Hopefully someone will soon provide the market with a GPS friendly version of the trail, while compensating Sam for his time, so we can all move on.

    ktm950se
    #6
  7. Jeff@TheQuadShop

    Jeff@TheQuadShop TAT survivor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Oddometer:
    4,942
    Location:
    Crestwood, Kentucky
    You get a nice detailed map with the charts. It is not hard to sit down and transfer these maps to mapsource. I did this and had it all transfered to GPS in two evenings.
    #7
  8. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    6,002
    Location:
    Carson City/Ridgecrest
    There is no "market" for GPS tracks since they can not be copywrited. As soon as your tracks hit the Internet, your investment is lost. Just look at the CDR!

    I provide tracks for my Roll Chart rides but as soon as one appears on the Internet without my permission there will be no more trqcks for my rides.

    On Mexico to Canada, riders must turn in the roll chart every night to get the one for the next day. They must aalso gree to erase the tracks each day and not keep a copy.

    The answer above is the way to go, if you want tracks draw them from Sam's maps.
    #8
  9. MotoJim

    MotoJim Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Oddometer:
    226
    Location:
    Searching....
    Jerry, I think you can copyright track logs. In fact, once they are published they are copyrighted by default. Enforcing the copyright is another issue.

    Each track log is like a finger print. If you have a track log that has say 500 points it is very unlikely than someone else can duplicate that track log exactly. So if their track log is exactly like yours, I think you would have a good chance at proving the track log was stolen from you.

    Creating a track log becomes the intellectual property of the author as a byproduct of their effort. You cannot copyright a highway or public road but I think you can copyright the dots representing that highway or road. It's much like a photograph only a different medium.

    Now this does not prohibit someone from creating their own track log of the same roads. (I suspect this is what you really mean) In this case, it would be highly unlikely that the track logs are exactly the same even though they could be used to navigate the same route.

    I can take a photograph of Monument Valley and copyright it. Someone else can take an almost identical photograph and it will not violate the copyright of my photograph.

    Most people are too lazy to create a track log.

    So Jerry, if I rode one of your dualsport events and somehow captured those track logs and put them out on the internet without your permission, I think I would be violating your intellectual property rights by doing so and be subject to penalty.

    On the other hand, if I had a really good memory and upon returning home fired up my mapping program and created my own track logs, I think I would be less subject to penalty.

    I agree with you that once someone posts a track log to the internet as a free download, it potentially devalues any copyrighted versions of the same route.

    Someday, there will be a copyright infringement case related to track logs. If anyone knows of one, I would like to know about it.
    #9
  10. ramz

    ramz Professional Trail Rider

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Oddometer:
    2,045
    Location:
    Salida, CO
    #10
  11. ktm950se

    ktm950se Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,385
    Location:
    Southern Maine
    Greetings again,
    This is the very point. Even if I can, as Jeff states, "sit down and transfer these maps to mapsource... I did this and had it all transfered to GPS in two evenings...," does doing so really make the most sense? Not if Sam's map info is no longer current. Why not have someone who most recently completed the trail share their GPS data so others can have the best chance of completing it in a timely and safe manner? And even if I did transfer the map data to mapsource, as Jeff sugggests, what's to prevent me from freely sharing that with others, as so many are afraid will happen? Well, its this: Adv. riders, for the most part, are stand-up individuals, and not prone to stealing. I'm sure the vast majority would pay for the use of TAT GPS data if it was available. Look at all the ride reports where so many of us have gone way beyond what non-Adv. riders would do to help out our own. I'm certain this spirit of honor and assistance would extend to the use of Sam's, and others', specialized GPS data as well.
    Aren't you?

    ktm950se
    #11
  12. Vinnie the Snake

    Vinnie the Snake Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,094
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, Ok
    I do not see the issue, I bought the maps, spent my time working my way thru the maps, created my TAT on Mapsource and put in my GPS. If I came to a dead end or a closed area, I just worked my way around and went on. Most of those were bridges out, washed roads, or major screw up on my part.

    I found that 99 percent of the trail is correct, the other parts were just a challenge and added to the excitement of the trip. I also used google earth to verify gps data, points, tracks and other. Little home work went a long way. Actually found several other ways around obsticals and had that info just in case.

    My suggestion, get the maps, learn the maps, put the data in the GPS, follow the TAT as close as possible, and deal with the issues as they arise, learn the area 30 miles either side of the route for emergency, and have a great ride.

    It took me three evenings to build the route and get comfortable with the info.

    Below is the partial ride. Have done other sections on my XR650L

    2007 - Vintage TAT Ride - OK, NM, CO - ADVrider
    #12
  13. KneeKicker

    KneeKicker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Oddometer:
    2,631
    Location:
    Indiana
    Call me crazy, but I think the roll charts make it more fun. Hey it's an adventure.
    #13
  14. Monty_Burns

    Monty_Burns Excellent.

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Oddometer:
    1,280
    Location:
    Mundelein, Illinois
    It'd be nice if the makers of mapping software and GPS devices would support a form of DRM protection to allow people (like Sam) to sell GPS tracks without fear of them getting passed around the Internet without getting compensation for their efforts. I know there are ways around this approach and I'm sure someone else has already thought about it. I don't mind paying for maps and guidebooks. I wouldn't have any problem paying for GPS tracks either when the creators have gone to an effort as great as the one required for TAT.

    My $0.02.
    #14
  15. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    6,002
    Location:
    Carson City/Ridgecrest
    MotoJim,
    I am not sure if you rode the TAT and then you just posted your GPS tracks you would violate a copy write since Sam sells Maps.

    KTM950,
    My guess is that you have never owned a business or made any risky investment with the intention of making a return on that investment. It doesn’t matter what makes sense, Sam did the work and if you want to use his work you need to pay. Once the Jeany is out of the lantern (TAT tracks on Internet) Sam is out of business. You say, “Adv. riders, for the most part, are stand-up individuals, and not prone to stealing”, it only takes one. They may be stand up but I have found they are cheep and don’t like to pay for rides. You say “Why not have someone who most recently completed the trail share their GPS data so others can have the best chance of completing it in a timely and safe manner?” Sounds like welfare to me. Some big brother should take care of you. If they are so stand up explain this http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258736&highlight=mex2can thread?

    What I don’t understand is why people don’t send Sam their own tracks or marked up his maps where the route is not passable so Sam can keep it up to date. I know on Mex2Can we usually have to make small changes every year.
    #15
  16. mrider

    mrider Adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2007
    Oddometer:
    70
    Location:
    SoCal
    It's pretty clear from that thread that they were asking for gps for a mex to can route, and were willing to pay. The person who started the thread specifically said he asked to pay for the maps for your route, and that he had done some of your rides. Cleary there are multiple ways to do a mex to can trip. They wanted to do a self supported ride though, and not pay $2,750 for a full blown tour on specific dates. Sams maps for a 4,700 mile route are $276, or you can pay by individual state. Seems to me you could have an additional source of revenue by selling maps AND doing the tours. Likewise, if Sam wanted to also offer a guided TAT for more money, I'm sure he would have no shortage of takers.

    The fact that so many people have created their own gps coordinates from Sams maps, and yet they are not posted anywhere, seems to show that they could be included with the maps and would not be sent around. He could probably even charge extra for them. (Especialy if they were being updated as needed).
    #16
  17. JimC

    JimC Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2003
    Oddometer:
    1,039
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    What a concept!:clap

    This is the point I was trying to make, the TAT is an adventure. Part of the adventure is working with the maps and roll charts and navigating your way across the country off pavement. If you can't understand how this process is part of the TAT adventure you miss the whole reason for doing the ride. While I created tracks in Mapsource from Sam's maps, they were inaccurrate enough that we often had to rely on the roll charts to stay on the trail. The tracks were a wonderful tool, but only one part of the equation for success.

    I think this is why Sam is reluctant to change the ride. The TAT is the TAT because it hasn't changed. As someone noted above, the vast majority of the route is still accurrate. The trail closures, rock slides bridges out and all the other challenges you encounter along the way just make it more memorable.

    Do you think people have offered Sam GPS tracks of the ride? Do you think people have offered him bypasses around closed sections of the trail? Probably hunderds of times. I for one am glad the TAT is still the same adventure that it was when it was first charted, maybe even more so today. I am glad I didn't have a set of tracks given to me for the ride. My guess is so are a lot of other people.

    I am a huge fan of GPS's and I love to create and share tracks with others, but I have to say that GPS tracks have really sterilized adventure riding or at least removed navigation as part of the adventure equation.

    Everyone has an opinion, but I hope Sam leaves the TAT just like it is.

    Jim in Sacramento
    #17
  18. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Oddometer:
    1,312
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I don't pretend to know if GPS tracks can be copyrighted, but I know that in almost every example I can think of, the data eventually becomes public. One problem is that someone gets the data who has no relationship to the creator.

    A simple example is someone who buys Sam's TAT maps and then rides it in a group. One of the group, not a customer of Sam's and maybe not even a friend of the TAT map purchaser, keeps a track log. He writes up a great trip report on his blog and calls it "My TransAmerica Trail Ride". He includes a link to his GPX file. Google finds it, as it eventually finds everything, and it's now public. Were any laws broken? Was there even any 'bad' behaviour?

    I remember several years ago hearing about the OBDR and wondering what and where it was. Now I know of several detailed accounts of it, including GPS information. Someone, at some time may have been charging for this data, but the fact is, the data can't be protected. It's not possible. I think someone even offers tours of the OBDR. More power to them.

    On your own site, there are links to some pretty well written and detailed accounts of folks traveling on your route. A couple of evenings of careful reading and a good map will probably get someone a pretty good idea of the route. Even Touratech's latest DVD has a printed map of most of the route. In the desert west, just knowing where the gas stations are will narrow the choices quite a lot. I don't think that makes your tour any less valuable.

    Folks pay for tours of National Parks and cities and all kinds of places. Certainly, the roads to and through those places aren't a secret. $5 at any gas station will get you a map. Where the road goes isn't what customers are paying for.

    IMO, your route will eventually become public, as will Sam's. And in all likelihood, no laws will have been broken. A good business plan will understand these risks and account for them.
    #18
  19. volbeat22

    volbeat22 n/a

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Oddometer:
    773
    Nothing prevents you from sharing your GPS Log of the TAT with others for free.

    Unless Sam made you sign a confidentiallity agreement, he would have little to no authority to prevent GPS track log sharing.
    #19
  20. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    6,002
    Location:
    Carson City/Ridgecrest
    Nothing except morals and character! And the desire that people keep selling ride information on the honor system and don't get screwed by cheap basterds.
    #20