Transamerica trail

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by Abenteuerfahrer, Dec 27, 2007.

  1. Bama67

    Bama67 Cooler in real life

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    They both seem to be based off tracks.

    Idk. I still haven't got it to work, so I don't guess I will be able to use the map at all.

    And thanks for the couple of guys being negative as hell and trying their best to alienate me and others that use maps they didn't pay money for.

    Just consider this thread closed guys.
  2. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    Neither of those gps units will accept tracks. You figured that out.

    "GPSkevins tracks" show up because what you got is a _map_ made from his tracks, not the tracks themselves. Your gps units will accept maps.

    Load the TN tracks into Basecamp and make a list of the intersections, the distance between them, and which way to turn at each one. Put it on your tankbag. Voila! Or get a TN map and a yellow marker and make your own "tracks" to follow.

    I bet you can find your way across TN without having a gps to lead you every mile of the way. If you get stuck, ask someone. And if you don't ride some particular section _exactly_ as someone described, what does it matter? Have fun!:D
  3. sieg

    sieg Wearing out tires......2 at a time, day after day.

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    Your gps will except waypoints, so in basecamp make a waypoint at each intersection, number the waypoints consecutively, 1, 2, 3,.... load to the gps. Bring up waypoint #1, hit "go" when you get there bring up waypoint #2, hit "go', and so on, and so on......................

    Hey how 'bout calling Sam's customer support hotline..........:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl
  4. Bama67

    Bama67 Cooler in real life

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    I think I will do just that. I am going to head to Tellico and take what dirt roads I can remember and just make sure I just generally head west.

    I bought the most detailed TN paper map I could find online but probably 75% or more of the trail roads aren't on it, it appears.

    What makes this more difficult is that here at our new house we recently built we have no internet and I have to drive a few miles just to get enough cell signal to look up anything, or write here and it's aggravating as hell. Lol.

    I'll be looking forward to the West, it's supposed to be over 100 degrees today, and HUMID. The tent should be interesting. :D
  5. 9Dave

    9Dave Bazinga!

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    Alienate you? Nah. Just commenting on scumbags like gpskevin freely admitting to stealing others' work, and those that use it.

    If you want to do it right, buy a GPS that will handle tracks and buy the tracks from Sam.

    A Garmin GPSMap unit like the 60Cx, or 78, or Montana will get the job done.
  6. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    I came across the gpskevin website while Google'ing tat, cobdabbqbr, and a few other trail/ride names mentioned here on advrider. this is the first negativity mentioned I've seen. people have remailed me, and I them, tracks we have ridden since I started playing with GPS records. is the negative vibe described somewhere, so I can read it first hand?
  7. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    Like the War on Drugs - which is actually the War on Some Drugs, this is the War on Some Tracks. Post and share any track you like except anything called TAT.

    Off to Jo Momma! :rofl
  8. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    Stealing TAT info is discussed at length here:
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545857
    Bottom line, TAT was created by Sam, who sells the info to follow it in order to fund development of more similar great adventures. When you ride TAT, and don't pay Sam, you're stealing from him and discouraging further development. He states that on his website.

    There are lots of people who don't understand the concept of paying for something that's so easy to steal. Or better stated, they don't understand it until they are the victim of the theft. They come up with dozens of excuses why it's ok to ride TAT without paying, yet will defend their own wallet to the end of time. There are lots of tracks for other rides that are free. If you don't want to pay Sam for TAT, do one of those other rides.

    I have shared thousands of miles of tracks with the world, including parts of the Great Western Trail. But some of the tracks I have created are carefully protected, and only shared with those I trust. Those people generally pay a good sum to ride those select rides, and they come back every time I have something new to offer, even when I charge.
  9. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    oh good Lord that was a bag of worms. sorry about the stir.
  10. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    That is one, but there are many more like Hog Wild pointed out.

    Like him, I have posted thousands of miles of my tracks on AdvRider and GPSXchange.com and they have been reposted on other sites like Dual Sport Maps. This is not a problem for the person who developed those tracks and put them in the public domain.

    The other class of Tracks are those that were developed by someone for commercial purpose. Posting tracks that a promoter provided for a fee and he made it clear they are proprietary and only provided for one time use and not public domain is no different than stealing any other piece of intellectual property.
  11. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    i'm sorry man, but unless you're looking up the original explorer/surveyor that plotted that road you take to work, or the path you tracked, and paying his/her remaining family for the privilige, this is bogus.

    you go, you ride, you track. it's YOUR TRACK, do to with whatever you like. if you are fancy enough a marketer to actually SELL IT, more power to ya, i'm all for making a buck or three. expecting everyone that ever finds one of your tracks, goes and explores it, to compensate you (or me, or 'them') is bogus also.

    anyway, this SAM guy makes nice tracks. good for him. (no sarcasm at all). i think it's pretty cool to get paid for doing what you love. :clap
  12. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    1) That would be true if some other person actually pioneered that 2,500 mile route but no one did. Sam did, I did, or Hog Wild did ours first. Just like patients, all the element existed but the inventor was first to put them all together.

    2) Yes that is true and we all love it, but not the issue.

    This thread is about people buying the right to use a track once then posting it on the internet. What made this country better than any other in the world is that it was based on your reward was for your hard work. The Pilgrims tried sharing the benefit of other's work and it failed in one year and they reverted to classic reap your own rewards. Sadly about 45% of us now want everything without doing any work to get it.

    Theft of someone else's work is theft with no way to rationalize it away except in the minds of thieves.

    If I were Sam I would require a standard business non-disclosure agreement with each sale so if someone posted it on the internet he could sue for financial loss.
  13. sieg

    sieg Wearing out tires......2 at a time, day after day.

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    NO! :deal It's a thread about someone buying Sam's tracks and asking for help figuring out how to use them.
    Some Sam lovers and Kevin haters have turned it into a who can share, who can sell thread.
  14. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    Every book publisher in the world wishes that were true! :rofl

    In Sam's case he published his work. People bought it. And just like a book, when they are done they can pass it along to their friends. How many folks have ever done the TAT more than once? Ever bought a paperback that both you and your wife read? It is not out of the realm of possibility that Sams published work could end up in a library with millions of other published works, available to check out for a month at a time.

    You OTOH haven't published your tracks. So they will stay a secret - until they aren't. I don't see how you can keep them a secret for long. You sure no one who's ever taken your trip hasn't had a second gps or smartphone somewhere? How do you know someone isn't leading their friends on your route this minute? Even if you knew, what are your options? There are a number of ways between Gerlach and the Oregon border. How different does the track have to be before it isn't yours? If they publish their adventure, including the tracks and call it My Great North American Adventure, will you ever know? I suspect there are a lot more adventure riders that don't hang out here than do.

    In the TAT case, even years ago a simple google search would turn up most of the info. If gpskevin had labeled his web pages something like Kevin's Coast to Coast Adventure we may never have this discussion.

    Too much typing and not enough gravel roads make Phil a grump. Time to ride.
  15. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    If you were to re-type each chapter from a book, turn that into a PDF file, and post it on the internet, you would be in violation of the law. That's a derived copy. Even if you make a bunch of typo mistakes or change a few words that result in your "copy" being somewhat different, it's still a derived copy that you don't own the rights to. All the words (roads) in the dictionary are free for everyone to use. But put them in the same order that an original book author did, and publish that for others to read for free, then you're in the wrong.

    Or how about taking a video recorder into a movie theater, making a video copy of the movie, then posting that on the internet? If you do that, you're in the wrong. If you knowingly view such a copy, you're stealing from the original creators.

    Clearly Sam would rather be out riding that chasing down every scumbag thief, so it's easy to get away with it. But just because you can get away with it does not make it morally ok. Clearly the tracks, maps, or roll charts and the "TAT experience" are worth something to all those who ride TAT, otherwise they would be out doing some OTHER ride. And since Sam asks to be paid for his hard work, why would anyone feel it's ok to copy it and/or skip out on paying?

    Like Countdown said, some people want everything for free, or want someone else to pay. They have no respect for the hard work of others. That's why I protect my most precious creations so strongly, and significantly limit who gets "in". It hurts other riders because they will never have the opportunity to experience some of the most unique rides around. Lots of good honest people miss out because there are so many scumbags around.
  16. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    None of that has anything to do with this discussion, especially my reference to books. Of course you can't legally make a copy of a book or movie and sell it. I didn't say that. Your "experience" reading the book or watching the movie is what you paid for. I said when you were done reading the book you are perfectly within your rights to give it to a friend. And when you are finished watching the movie you are perfectly able to talk about the characters, the plot, the ending, the music or discuss the great roads they drove along. And to go ride them yourself.

    For the same reason it is perfectly legal to share a book. You bought the book, you own the book (not the story, the physical book) so you can pass it on. Same is true of any published work, which is what Sam has. You can't make copies of his maps or his roll charts, but the info contained on them is public. That's what published means. As Countdown mentions, it is how we grow the sum total of our knowledge. Someone figures something out, writes a book, someone else reads that and adds the knowledge to their skills and makes something better, And writes a book. On and on.

    It isn't at all clear to me that gpskevin "stole" anything. His tracks are not identical to Sam's. If they were, the original poster wouldn't have asked for help. As far as I know gpskevin actually rode across the country. And shared his tracks. Is Sam pursuing any legal remedies? I have no idea but I would be surprised if he was, or could.

    I suspect most folks would think of a set of tracks as a set of instructions, which are not protected under copyright. Mrs Fields makes a fine income selling chocolate chip cookies but she has no control over chocolate chip cookie recipies. There are thousands of them out there. Probably 100 of them in my house. Made some for grandkids last week.

    Just like books. My neighbor gave me the one I'm reading now. I've loaned him a dvd or two. I'm sure the publisher would like us to each buy one but no one broke any laws. Or moral codes. None of that changes just because you like Sam and Jerry and are in the same business as they are.

    If you published your tracks wouldn't even more people "have the opportunity to experience some the most unique rides around." I think what you really mean is more people would have the opportunity to pay you to experience those rides. Fine with me, but not what you said. Do you really think no one but you and your customers go where you go? How do you know some of your sets of directions isn't already being passed around? It sort of sounds like the real value of your products is that they are secret - so far. Coke's recipe is still secret but Pepsi sells plenty, as well.

    Trying to keep them secret is the correct way, IMO. As soon as you publish the info isn't yours anymore. But if someone does happen to go the same way you do and share it, you have no recourse. You didn't publish it so no creative expression so you have no copyright, thus no way to protect anything. And if you did do all that and didn't sue everyone who shared them you would lose the ownership. Part of the requirements. If Sam chooses not so take gpskevin to court he will eventually lose control of the information. (Which I suspect has already happened.)

    I've taken lots of guided tours while on vacation. I doubt any of the tour companies have tried to copyright the routes the bus takes from one place to another. What they have of value is the information they provide along the way. Pay your $20, get a set of headphones and ride along. You could follow the bus in your car but you wouldn't know which archduke got killed in which castle. :) But if what the tour company was selling was the route and the view along the way, then following along in your own car would work just fine. Which kind of sounds like your business. And probably why the tour companies don't do it.

    I'm not sure "keeping a secret" in the internet age is really a sound business model.

    I also don't think calling people names just because they happen to do things differently than you would like them to is really the advrider we want. I think there is enough of that in the world without getting it here.

    TIme to go make some tracks - which may or may not be like anyone else's.
  17. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    So many excuses, so little respect for the works of others.

    Why is it so hard to understand that the right thing to do is either pay Sam what he asks, or skip TAT and ride something else. As Sam says, sharing TAT tracks hurts further development.
  18. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    True but he got his question answered then this came up:

  19. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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  20. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    Exactly right and just what I said in my post above.

    Not. You can't limit someone's property rights just because you don't like what they might do with them. Completely unenforceable. Can you imagine Barnes & Noble only selling you a book if you agreed to destroy it after you read it?

    NFL games are performances and they are copyrighted. No, you shouldn't record the game and put it on YouTube. But you can talk about the game in as much detail and depth as you wish with whomever you wish. You can even teach your Pop Warner team the same plays and run them on Friday afternoon.

    Just like the folks who bought Sam's route instructions. When they are done with them they have every right to pass them on as they see fit. No, not scanning all the materials and putting them on the net.

    I'm done here, this is silly.