Transamerica trail

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by Abenteuerfahrer, Dec 27, 2007.

  1. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    Sure you can. Garmin does with every current map they sell. You're not allowed to post their maps or derived copies of their maps on the internet. And you're not allowed to load their maps onto an unlimited number of GPS units. A Garmin map is basically a mega elaborate set of tracks. I don't think Garmin would come after you if you posted a couple of city blocks from their map, but if you publish a significant portion of the total map data, you're clearly in the wrong. Publishing or using a significant portion of TAT without permission is wrong too. Sam may not be able to enforce this very well, but that doesn't make it ok. Is that the attitude, "if I can get away with it, then it's ok"? Is hurting Sam ok?

    That's exactly what I do, and so far it's working great. This is what my roadbooks have at the very beginning:

    Terms of Use:
    As a condition of accepting this roadbook and corresponding map, user agrees to the following: Roadbook and map are provided as short-term rentals only. They are not for sale, and remain the property of Scott Whitney. Copying or other reproduction is strictly prohibited. User agrees to not record or allow others following along to record any GPS tracks while following the roadbook. A GPS track recorded while following the roadbook is considered a derived copy of the roadbook, and is therefore prohibited. The roadbook and map are for one-time rental use only, by one individual per paper copy, and must be returned or destroyed immediately after first use. Distribution, sharing, or publication of roadbook, map, or derived GPS tracks via email, internet, or other means is prohibited. Copyright © 2014
  2. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    This agreement is only valid if the customer knowingly allows someone riding along to record the track. That would have to be proven in a court of law. The person recording the track has signed no agreement with you. He may not even be aware of the agreement the customer has accepted.

    Why is there used book stores? Would a used TAT store be illegal? I see both sides of the discussion.

    Did Sam offer tracks before the GPS tracks became available from other sources or in response to them?
  3. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    "If you don't like the question, answer one you do."

    If I have learned anything in this thread it is that these track providers are consumate politicians. They never answer the questions you ask.
  4. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    Sam has had a good run and will continue to do so. The problem is the motorcycle community enjoys riding an sharing that enjoyment with others. Most of us are willing to share what we enjoy with others freely. There are a few that have chosen to make sharing the fun a business. That's fine and I have no problem with that. But as a business it is there responsibility to protect it. It appears the only way this can be done is by name calling and promoting the idea if you don't pay them you are not a good person. This works to degree and will assure them of future business. Which is also fine.

    When you purchase the routes/tracks you have no assurance that the route can be completed as purchased. It is up to you to reroute. There may be changes that are unforseen by the provider. So what are you paying for? For a route that can not be ridden? How much of a route that can not be followed is required for a refund? There is no reasonable expectation that the route can be completed as purchased. When I buy a product there is a reasonable expectation that I get what I pay for. With this you are paying handsomely for a maybe. When a fellow rider shares a route/track there is no expectation other than to give it a try.

    But adventurers we don't seem to care. It is part of the adventure. This is the way it is. It should be different when you are paying for it.
  5. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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  6. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    I am amazed at the lenghts you will go to avoid addressing the actual questions and also your complete lack of understanding of intellectual property law.

    Just one last question which I'm sure you won't answer, but here goes:

    If one of your customers, in spite of all your efforts, posts a gps track of your can2mex ride, what actions will you or can you take?
  7. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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  8. NorthernTraveler

    NorthernTraveler Long time Adventurer

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    Countdown has credited me with a route from the PCQ to the CDR, but there are a few more I've done.

    The route from the northern end of the PCQ (Manzama WA) to the northern end of the CDR (at least in the US - Eureka MT) I released in 2010. I have since extended the free portion from Anacosta WA (on the coast) to Eureka with two options across Washington state.

    That route now extends to central PA. The mid section I'm debating selling and haven't released.

    The eastern end in PA I'm in the process of releasing for free.

    This route I call the 'Northern Route'

    I have also 90% built a southern connector for the PCQ and CDR, haven't gotten around to releasing it either, but am in discussions with this site for hosting... files are too big for normal posting. Around 3k miles scouting.

    I call this route the 'Southern Route'

    I also built the TET-S - the southern half of an east coast route from the Gulf of Mexico to the eastern border of Maine. Chip - InTheNew - did the northern half (I helped a bit). Chip had the idea to do it, and I said I would do the southern half - I'm now around 2790 miles of released route.

    I'm past 10k miles scouting TET-S. - this is giving back to the community.

    I'm past 23k miles scouting my Northern Route... some I'm giving away, but some - why shouldn't I be compensated?
  9. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    I don't see where you need anyone's permission. It is like any commercial venture. If you did all of that to make money it's stupid not to try. Would you have done it only for the fun of it?
  10. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    You clearly have a fair view of this subject, and understand right from wrong. But I'm curious where is it promised, guaranteed, or even implied that any route such as TAT is 100% passable at the time a customer rides it? Even with a high-price Garmin map, there is no promise or guarantee that there are no mistakes in the data, or that it is 100% up to date. Can I legally or even morally demand a partial refund from Garmin if I find a mistake, miss-identified or recently closed road? If such a guarantee is given, then I would agree that there is an expectation that it's all passable. Of course it would be impossible for the author to provide 100% perfection in such a long route given that conditions on any road can change at any time. Perhaps in the case of TAT, it could be better presented on the website that "shit happens, any particular section may or may not be passable at any particular time". If they were 99.99% perfect, I would expect a much higher price for TAT tracks since the work involved in assuring that could be astronomical.

    Yes, that's absolutely a serious difficulty. It would not be a problem if people were honest and acted in a respectful way. But that's not the way the world is, as is made clear by some in this and related threads, so we deal with it the best we can. In my case, I significantly limit who has access to the information. I also convey the importance of respecting the value of the information, and the consequences of violating the trust of that info. As far as I can tell, I've been 100% successful with that approach. If you can find tracks for DVR, TGR, or Diabolical (my 3 main projects, totaling about 7500 miles so far), let me know and I'll amend that secrecy success rate.

    Correct, and when wrong doing is uncovered, it should be called out. Truthfully, my guess is that the OP here didn't really know or understand what he was doing was wrong, until he was called on it.

    If it's identified as a non-transferable one-time use only item (which is what I do, and basically what movie theaters and concerts do), then there should be no question. In my case, I'm selling a very unique adventure experience, not a track or roadbook or other description of a route to be followed. The GPS tracks or roadbooks are just "rented" tools used to have that experience, and those tools remain MY property. And since it's clearly stated and agreed to be a "one-time" only thing, where recording is not allowed, a legal contract is established.
  11. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    This is also true for PCQ, GWT, & CDR each year but riders consider the work arounds as part of the adventure. Somehow with the TAT it voids the ownership issue in some rider's minds.

    I think I have pointed this out at least three times but again some riders still view a one time tour as a hard product that can be passes on.
  12. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    If I purchase the one time use of the track and have four friends riding with me should they also pay you for the experience? I would guess no. If this is so, how many becomes too many.
  13. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    I am afraid that is exactly what it is. Whether you like it or not. It is more like buying a DVD then going to a movie or concert. Unless you guide it how can it be anything else.
  14. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    In my opinion YES, because the others would be getting the "adventure/experience" without paying. In the case of my rides, absolutely they need to pay. In this case, it's like a movie or concert ticket. You can't have five non-paying people follow the one paying guy through the gate.

    The tracks, or roll chart, or map ARE the guide.
  15. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    You know what you are doing and it is apprecaited. I am taking a side that I really don't want to pursue. Kind of a devils advocate. But by doing so I am picking your brain for the arguments to support your position. You make good points and I would expect nothing less.

    My daughter is an award winning author and copy right infringement is an important issue for authors and publishers.

    Keep up the good work. I wish you much success in your business. I also appreciate the no nonsense discussion without name calling and attacks on my character. A class act.
  16. pckopp

    pckopp Aged Adventurer

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    Have a great weekend!
  17. sieg

    sieg Wearing out tires......2 at a time, day after day.

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    So along with telling people when they RENT ( buy ) your tracks that they can't, copy, or use them twice, or GPS the tracks. Do you tell them they can't let anyone ride with them? :D
  18. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    If that's the way you see it, then why did you participate? Cigar Mike took a constructive approach which helped bring some good points up. Some may call it pointless arguing, others may see it as an opportunity to learn something or see things from a different perspective.
  19. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    The way I operate and the nature of my rides is a bit different than what you might be imagining. If I don't know you, or you're not recommended or referred by someone I know and trust, then you're probably not going to participate. Everyone who participates gets a heavy dose of "please respect the confidentiality of the routes and materials". Good honest people respect that and act accordingly. If someone tags along for free, I generally would not care much because they would be with someone I trust. Most participants are repeats, or will be in the future, so they know not to abuse my trust.

    One of the main reasons I do not open my rides to "everyone" is because there are so many dishonest people out there. YOU can't come because OTHERS are dishonest. THIS is what Sam means when he says copying and distributing tracks hurts further development. In my case it's not the development that is limited, it's the lack of availability to others that is limited. If most people acted respectfully, there would be more great rides available to you. Dishonest people hurt the honest people.
  20. Cigar Mike

    Cigar Mike Too Old and Too Slow

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    You made this post after my last. I wish you would not have done that. I do have a problem with that. Even the National Park service charges by the car load. Even if my wife and I are on two motorcycles both of us are covered under one National Park Pass. I haven't been to drive-in movie for 30 years but they charged by the car load. The States Park system in Colorado charges by the carload. I guess from your reasoning if you are riding two up, both should have to pay. That is without a doubt unreasonable. I don't think many would buy into that logic. In all the examples a group of people are enjoying the "experience" together for a single fee.

    Since you did not build the roads or maintain them (our tax dollars did) and you are using public roads as a money making venture. I think it is only right for there to be a user fee paid by you for the use of public roads. If you are using roads through National Park or National Forest you should also pay a fee like other concessions do to use Federal lands in a commercial venture. There is no law that requires you to do this but it is morally the right thing to do. But the reason that will never happen is as you have demonstrated in the quoted post. The money you can make is what is important.

    What you do as a commercial business is fine. But the idea that you are one of the guys doing things to help the motorcycle community by providing free tracks is false. It serves one purpose. It is not giving back. It is good marketing. Just don't pretend it is something else. Providing free tracks is a business move promoting your name recognition to help sell the products. At some point you probably did share tracks to help fellow riders. But once you turn it commercial that becomes secondary.

    It is a good business. You don't build any of the roads. You don't maintain them. You don't provide any assurance the trip can be completed as purchased. And that is because you don't have any control over the public roads the trip covers and that you are using for free. You went out and had a good time riding and decided to make a profit from it.

    I still wish you well in your business and respect what you do as a small business. Just don't pretend it is anything else but a business and that you are giving back to the motorcycle community anymore than the Motorcycle Superstore.

    I wish you hadn't posted that.

    PS: Hogwild, this post is not directed at you alone. Some of the statements may refer to what Countdown has posted. But I think you get the idea.