Trip master,RNS, ICO, & Roadbook tips and tricks

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Mudguts, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. SafariBerg

    SafariBerg Oz Safari Addict

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    for ERTF GPS based events

    run 2 x Speedocap V3 units atop of the MD/Roadbook, LHS one set to odo trip mode connected to remote thumb switch, RHS one set on CAP / SOG mode

    all the function of the traditional ICO/RNS odos plus the benefit of auto correct of the odo trip every time you pass a waypoint

    PLUS SOG is based on GPS speed not ICO speed hence reduces risk of over speeds in DZ's

    PLUS trip is GPS based so no concerns if you have the correct wheel circumference set or not

    PLUS no low mounted vulnerable sensor or sensor lead issues

    can also have an ICO at the bottom of the MD like many already do for additional redundancy & having a sensor based odo in addition to the GPS based Speedocaps

    many autos run 2 x GPS's to achieve the same approach, interestingly the only moto I have seen so far to adopt this is Alain Duclos the current factory Sherco rider.

    its what we use in our T3 Polaris

    [​IMG]

    with a Speedocap V3 in front of the driver
    [​IMG]
    #21
  2. JayBo1

    JayBo1 Long timer

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    How does this setup compare in cost to traditional ICO's?
    Is the weight and size same?
    Power consumption comparison?
    How does the "auto correct at Waypoints" work if you only need to be within various distances of a Waypoint to get a trigger to the next one? It potentially puts the ODO trip out by a fair bit depending whereabouts in the circle of a Waypoint you arrive and different for the different types of Waypoints.
    #22
  3. SafariBerg

    SafariBerg Oz Safari Addict

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    nearly everyone now uses a CAP repeater, or the majority of riders now the more recent Speedocap models, this approach simply adds another

    every time you validate a GPS waypoint the GPS sets the odo to the correct km cumulative distance for that waypoint, given the validation radius is usually 100m or 90m depending on the event, the + - error margin is 0.1km basically the same as what the motos run with any way

    this way you KNOW you have the right cumulative odo distance, not a GUESS depending on how on the ball or not you are manually re-adjusting your trip during the stage

    besides with the Speedocap remote thumb switch you can still adjust the odo manually along the way between waypoints anyway should you wish to
    #23
  4. JayBo1

    JayBo1 Long timer

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    Cheers SB. The CAP repeater is kinda essential but I'm on the fence on springing for the Speedox. More dollars down the gurgler when I already have the CAP Repeater. The speed restricted zones don't bother me, as I suspect I'm the only one that actually obeys those already anyway.
    How many people use the auto calibrate function of the ICO? I was converted to that several years ago and love it. Hardly have to make manual adjustments after the first few km's or major changes of surface. I use the .01 feature rather than the .1 so down to 10 meters, not 100 meters. I can't help myself - I'm an engineer!:lol3
    #24
  5. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    Garry has a point, the automatic readjustment of the trip on the CAP readout is really slick! Apart from Alain Duclos, also Olivier Pain runs it.

    I've been meaning to create a tripmaster version that (soley) runs with the ERTF trip values, but for the time being many riders still run the traditional wheel tripmeters. Plus there are also some minor regulation rules to overcome (monopoly of ERTF and all)...

    BTW, many pros like to keep it as simple as can be, i.e. 100m trip readout (blackout the 10m position on their roadbook), no automatic calibration, etc..
    #25
  6. Vicks

    Vicks gets stuck in sand

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    Thanks for starting this thread and everyone else for contributing with your valuable nav knowledge. This is literally a treasure trove for noobs like me.

    :clap:clap
    #26
  7. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon Do or Do Not. There is no try.

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    This.
    The less you have in your mind when racing, the better...

    As far as the roadbook is concerned, I will be using HDB brake and clutch lever mounted switches in parallel with a normal RB switch giving maximum ease of use and the redundancy needed. I think that the roadbook area is left on its own regarding redundancy and I don't like this at the moment. If you have either a switch failure or a fall where you damage the rb switch, then you have to go manual.... Most RB's have either transmission or motor failures. There are things you can try to increase motor life but imo I think that the user should be able to service the unit with little or no tools at all in the middle of nowhere.
    #27
  8. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    Manual advance is one option, but it's not as safe as spending 5 minutes to make this switch, right on the side of the trail. We've done this in a race.

    Strip the wires of the broken switch, insulate the handlebar with tape, and tape the first lead down:

    [​IMG]

    Then tape the second lead above it. Use more tape to create a gap between the leads. Now you just press it down with your thumb.

    [​IMG]

    You only need to repair the "forward" direction. You can manually reverse on the rare occasion that you get off track.

    BTW, in my experience these failures are so rare on a well-prepared bike that it's really not worth investing in redundancy on the bike. Just have a spare switch at the bivouac. K.I.S.S. is a good policy.

    There are very few things that can't be fixed quickly in the field.

    Dave
    #28
  9. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon Do or Do Not. There is no try.

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    I wanted to take off the manual knobs completely and only leave small splines for knobs to be put on when needed, but people wanted the manual advance just in case. I would not advise manual scrolling, too dangerous for me, though the fast guys do not stop for such a reason :D, that is why I am thinking a small switch from HDB. The buttons are almost invisible, the price is good and it saves me the trouble.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Come next week we will have a good setup and will be trying it in the field...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #29
  10. Muecke

    Muecke Been here awhile

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    Yeah, nice job! :)
    #30
  11. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

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    Thats really neat stuff there Armageddon & Dave!!
    #31
  12. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    What does that weigh, D? I could make you a composite one :evil
    #32
  13. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon Do or Do Not. There is no try.

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    Yeah I know... weight weight weight... :huh Everybody is getting paranoid about it .... :D

    May be Titanium is better in this one, you know how to make one in Ti, right? :evil
    I really do not remember the weight by heart, but there are ultralight versions in Aluminium. Almost 50% reduction in weight compared with the 'standard' versions. I am testing them and will keep doing it till the design is finalized. The sheet metal gets complex, but the reduction as a percentage makes it worth it.
    Of course, if you go composite, the reduction is there, but the material is way too complex and unhealthy for my likes. Also more expensive. No?

    (There is a version which is lighter than air, it will be almost indestructible and will be ready in the near future. We have solved most of the design issues we had with them. )

    Till later,
    D.
    #33
  14. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    Yes definitely more expensive. Weaves laid at different angles etc, epoxy and bagged. Ti would be great and I could do one for you but it would be huge money
    #34
  15. michael1968

    michael1968 Long timer

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    For one part, yes an aluminium fabrication would be cheaper than composites. For 10, maybe not. It depends on how many labour hours you need to put into each piece vs the material cost. The initial set up and material cost is higher for composites but you can punch a decent volume out fairly quickly after that.

    Anyway, Dimitri, those plates look 'factory', I wouldn't expect anything less from you!

    Cheers,
    Michael
    #35
  16. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    The composite plates I make are 4 layers of 600gsm carbon laid at opposing angles and 2 layers of carbon/twaron, one top one bottom. Incredibly stiff but will flex a little if required. Bagged and infused with epoxy. Yes they are more expensive than ally, I did them more to show people what can be done with composites for rally bikes than to actually sell them. Here's one just before being drilled. The blue black colour is the carob/twaron fibre. Twaron is an aramid like kevlar, just black rather than yellow

    [​IMG]
    #36
  17. michael1968

    michael1968 Long timer

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    Yeah, you're right it'd be cheaper for a piece like that which could be done out of a bent aluminum plate. I was thinking more of Dimitri's part with multiple pieces cut, bent, welded together and anodized or powder coated.

    Edit: nice website by the way:thumbup
    #37
  18. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    :thumb
    #38
  19. uglybassplayer

    uglybassplayer Adventurer

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    Planning nav gear on a shoestring budget, have a manual RB on the way which I am going to add motors to at some point, now thinking about trip meters... Either going to be bicycle speedos (I can find something with a suitably large display) or building my own powered by an arduino.... Does anyone know of any rally trip meter arduino projects I could use as inspiration? Or can anyone suggest a good bicycle speedo?
    #39
  20. Mike_MRS

    Mike_MRS Been here awhile

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    Just bear in mind that any trip you use needs to have the ability to adjust it so you can match the roadbook. Otherwise the money saved on the kit could end up being false economy if you have to abandon an event (entry fee, fuel etc) because you can't match the instructions due to the trip being out to the roadbook, or if your roadbook reader fails in some way. For example the F2R guys have spent years on developing the roadbooks to be as resistant to vibration as possible, and the motors to handle all the banging and shock.

    A bicycle tripmeter tends to have set wheel diameters (in my experience) for you to choose so that's a consideration if the max front size the device will cope with is say, 20". You'd need one which can be calibrated to your exact tyre circumference and which can be adjusted on the fly up or down in total distance.

    Maybe another way of looking at is that used roadbooks and trips (assuming F2R or MD / RNS, ICO) in half decent condition will always fetch decent money because there will always be buyers so if you did buy new and you don't enjoy it the loss would be small :D
    #40