Tshocks...

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Sting32, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    You are so right about this, IMHO.

    One thing though, the factory riders, and I am all about the 70's... The better riders (recall the name Bob Nicholson?) They modified these fking honda bikes, as they unpacked them out of the crate, to even get them close to competitive... cutting frames to modifying the steering rake. Stuff nobody else knew.

    The biggest disadvantage has always been, the honda engine was a turd... It weighed in a no less than 1/3rd more than the 2 stroke "cc equivalent" yet in those days, a 250, was about equal to riding at 2 stroke 125/175. You freaking all know that is right, that is the basis of why the 125 class of yore (or the past), is 250cc now. and the 250 was almost 500 cc for the 4 strokes, just to give them equal footing at the beginning... after years of developement the HP is closer than it ever has been, but still they know the rules should be 350cc fourstroke = 250 to stroke equality, but that was like closing the barn door after the pigs got out.

    Plus thanks to Evinrude, they proved that 2 strokes are no more poluting than 4 strokes, based on what EPA was claming/falsifying in their tests... especially when you considered the "work" done by 2 strokes, with half the displacement requred of a 4 stroke, to accomplish even remotely close to same results in performance. all that, let alone the huge weight disparity, which is even more influential in a boat's motor requirements and how the boat/watercraft runs with the extra weight... This was easily translated and felt in trials bikes, and garden equipment as well!

    Freaking UnObtanium valves, rods, cranks, and all kinds of Formula 1 motor parts engineered & developed Just for the Factory riders, to make the 4rt "factory rider only model" that has reasonable estimated values of over $100,000 in the engine alone... that isnt a bike you and I can buy, for the 8-9 thousand dollars to ride in our clubs... Well, unless the US government will back montessa like theydo Chevy's Volt, which costs the taxpayer roughly $200,000 per car sold in america... But I digress...:lol3

    I still think the stupidest crap is that everyone recall's how nice the old honda's are, yet nobody won "ANYTHING" on them. And by god, I mean that in the most serious, not "pickin on honda or even 4stroke" terms...

    Those bikes, like newer "older ones" like 80's versions that Legune rode, they were special one off bikes, "factory" rides that NOBODY could own, they crushed them bikes back in the day, when the rider was done with them. That is why they dont exist, anything that is left is a "replica" or a fasade, like old pioneer town buildings on a hollywood set. they have the paint, decals, but nothing else. Originals destroyed, probably to not reveal how much dare I say it, "cheating" they were doing at the time...

    Well, thankfully IMHO. At least this kept one or 2 person's in the rest of the "amature" ranks (anyone not being paid to ride & train, like us) from getting that special bike, ruining competition for the rest of us, who had to buy what was available from dealers and such.

    oh well, Just another rant.
    #21
  2. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    My first `Trials School` was from Bob N. and Wiltz Wagner when they came down from colorado. Seems like 1973, pictures were in Shipman`s book Observed Trials just for fun.
    Wow Sting when you edit you edit!
    Now you are talking Bob`s Team Honda USA. Whaley, Eggar,Griffiths and was it Belair also. Back then I want to say the team bikes were like 18k each. Maybe just a little modified. Wish I could find my pictures.
    #22
  3. motu

    motu Loose Pre Unit

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    Trials is a winter sport here, we have a couple of trials in summer, but autumn, winter and spring is when we ride. We have a weather bomb hitting the North Island today - trees down, roofs off, roads blocked. It's blowing a gale and raining here, there is an Aircooled Trial on today - and it won't be cancelled. I'm not going, my granddaughter is here for the weekend. Rocky streams and in trees is where we ride, not much dust.
    #23
  4. Bendejo

    Bendejo Movin' on up

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    I'd love to see some photos of the terrain where you ride. :ear
    #24
  5. motu

    motu Loose Pre Unit

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    Rocky streams with muddy banks are popular.

    [​IMG]

    One of my daughters at another rocky stream.....sections are usually spread out along the stream, drop in, ride along and then climb out.

    [​IMG]

    In trees.

    [​IMG]

    Mud is always a favourite, there were 3 sections in the trees in the background too.

    [​IMG]
    #25
  6. JeffS77

    JeffS77 cheap bastard

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    looks a lot diffearent then what the ride here in southern california.....but very beautiful country you got there...i wish we had more green.

    (photos from Plonkers facebook page)


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    #26
  7. motojunky

    motojunky Professional Idiot

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    I'm reading this and interpreting that the Fantic seems to be the cream of the crop for twin shock bikes. Is that one man's opinion or a generally accepted truth?

    I think at some point I'd like to try a vintage bike (air cooled, twin shock, drum brakes by my club's rules) and have been casually thinking about what bike it might be. My wife likes Montesas, so of course an opportunity to "kill two birds with one stone" would carry a lot of weight.

    If you were looking for a twin shock bike to fool around and compete on (for fun, not seriously), what would you choose? Why?
    #27
  8. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    One of the factory Honda RTL's that Sting was kvetching about. :evil
    #28
  9. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    Motojunky, if your wife likes Montesas then the Cota 200 would be a good choice. It's easy to ride, light for the era and very competitive. Larry Holbert won the NATC Twin Shock Nationals on a Cota 200. In fact he beat a total of 75 Clubmen on modern bikes and was low score for the combined TS/CM classes at 4 of 5 US nationals. He was only beat once by a modern bike.
    #29
  10. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    Very truth!

    #1:
    The Fantic 200, 240 and 300 are the best twin shockers you can get.

    #2:
    Next in my view is the Montesa Cota 242!

    #3:
    Then it's difficult to say, from the older ones the SWM TL.NW with fork clamps from the Marzocchi but Betor forks, will turn much better and the bike is around 5 - 10 kg lighter then the other ones but shares the calm acceleration too.

    #4:
    Now comes the rest in my personal view, some likes Cota's more then Bultacos, there where some twinshock Betas already in the beginning 80's on the market but they worked not so good, ... not to forget the yellow Ossa's, Majesty TY, ... Oh yes Honda TLR not to forget

    When it comes too the :sweeti - factor for me the Sherpa 199b is unbeatable in design and appearence.

    (With some contemporary modifications you can lift nearly any brand/model to/near the top)

    I have a made my decision already with a Bultaco 199b, (modified), a SWM TL 320 and a Yamaha TY.
    #30
  11. motojunky

    motojunky Professional Idiot

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    I should've mentioned a budget. :D

    Those RTLs are perhaps my favorite trials bike from an "eye candy" perspective. I haven't seen many around in the sub $1,500 range though.

    Let's say for the sake of discussion that I wanted to limit my spending to $1,500. Parts availability is a consideration.
    #31
  12. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    For 1,500 you get a well used twinshock bike with some issues that have to be fixed, often there is sadly missing something too in this price range. A rebuild with original parts can, depending of the brand, cost you the same amount. Any additional upgrade to the suspension will add around 500 too.

    From personal experience I would add 500 to 1,000 to get a bike that is in most aspects complete, with little wear and running very well, this is in my opinion cheaper in the long run as hunting for parts and/or remanufacture them.
    #32
  13. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    The RTL is a mono-shock, so not that great for TS trials! Factory bikes were pretty good, but very different to the production bikes, which used a TLR250 motor dressed up with magnesium side casings to make it look trick.

    For anyone in the US interested in TS, a modified TLR Honda is a pretty good choice, as spares are easily available and cheap, and one of these with a few alterations will be able to cope with any sections intended for TS bikes.

    Fantic 200 in standard form, is perhaps the most competitive TS bike available, but spares may be hard to find in some locations, and are generally quite costly. The bigger capacity Fantic's are not comparable to the stock 200, and handling leaves a lot to desired, with the 300 feeling more like a 2 wheeled garden tractor, than a serious TS trials bike.

    Finally with the demise of AHRMA I would think ITSA sanctioned events are likely to become much more popular in the US, so converting an old Yam mono to TS, and riding it in the modern TS class seems to be something thats likely to cost less than a genuine TS bike, and will be fun to ride and very reliable.
    #33
  14. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    It may take a bit more $$$ than that to get one. There are about 10+ Factory RTL survivors that I know of, despite what was said here about them all being crushed.

    Five were saved here at American Honda. One of Marland Whaley's factory bikes is in the AMA museum in Ohio. At least one of Lejeune's bikes was saved. Several are in the Honda museum in Motegi. Most now are in Europe and get ridden often in Euro TS events. Rumor has it that Rob Shepard still has his British Championsip bike on his farm.
    #34
  15. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    I always told every one how `sweet` the 200 was, thanks for the proof!:D
    #35
  16. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    5 Time US National Trials Champion Marland Whaley .
    Hey Stink32 is this the guy you are calling a cheater? You know nothing.

    [​IMG]
    #36
  17. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    I didn't want to respond to this pile but a man can only ignore so much...

    Yeah you are all about the 70's. I rode Nationals and World rounds all through the 70's and where were you???.

    "fking honda bikes" why so much hate? Bob/Lineaway is right you Dale Fanboys are brainwashed.

    Bob Nickelsen, Marland Whaley and all the Honda people are my friends, be careful who you call a cheater.

    The early TL's were ridden stock here in the US. Later they began to develop and modify the bikes just like everyone else. Bike development is not against the rules

    This is Trials not MX.

    This is Trials not boats.

    The 4RT does have a factory engine but the numbers you quote are way too high. "Reasonable estimated values" ??? by who??? Sounds like a line that comes before bull$hlt.

    Lots of important National and International titles and event were won on production RTL's. Not everything in Trials is about riding the latest self destructing bike. These good people in the pics from NZ are having fun on bikes that are 25+ years old and probably only ever had basic service. Or should they hate those bikes like you do.

    Not all bikes were crushed not even the "Lejeune" bikes.

    The early works RTL had their share of problems. They were competitive with other bikes but not an advantage. The best rider still won.


    Your post is so full of bad info, Honda Hate and bad spelling that I am exhausted. I'll need several beers to wash this away.

    oh well, Just another rant.[/QUOTE]
    #37
  18. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Why bother to reply to someone who clearly has little understanding of the subject he is posting on?
    #38
  19. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    Wise words.
    #39
  20. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    I have some understanding issues with posts:

    - #37,
    - #38 and
    - #39,

    but english is not my motherlanguage maybe I just keep quite?

    I believe that the Honda's are so aftersaught today is based on these points:

    - they look just very nice,
    - they have the different and cool sounds of a four stroke,
    - they are competetive to the easier sections you have now compared to the past.
    - they have a light and good working clutch and are therefore easier to use in modern style riding,
    - the other bikes still have clutches where you have to pull with some force, which makes them
    not so easy to use for the modern style of riding. ((Beside of Yamaha's 125 and 175cc twinshock TY
    that has too a light clutch pull). (You can modify the clutch actuating and clutch of the other bikes,
    but this needs some effort in depth and is mostly costly too)).
    #40