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Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by backdrifter, Jun 5, 2005.
wow .. 6 years later
hell it was a good laugh.... how the hell do people find this stuff?
oh shit... woody's does tubeless?!?!?!?! since when?!??!?!?
A few yrs ago I had a flat and reallllleeee wanted, nay needed, to go riding at the last minute on a weekend, didn't have a good tube or a patch kit.. I live in the sticks of Arkansas. They ain't no bike shops in these here parts to buy a tube or even a patch kit on a Sat. afternoon and the boys wuz meeting on Sun. morning with or without me. I stuffed one of those kids styrofoam floatee pool toys wrapped tightly with duct tape in my front tire like a Bib Mousse. Rode about 35 miles hard as heck in nasty singletrack with mucho rocks before it started to break down. Even after it started feeling somewhat like a flat, it was still rideable for another 10-15 miles until it completely disintegrated and turned to mush. I still limped it back to the truck on a flat like any other flat tire.
I consider it a successful idea. Heck, for the first 35 miles it felt just like a tire with 15 lbs of air. Another time I stuffed a heavy duty 21" bicycle tube wrapped with duct tape in a rear tire, put in about 30 lbs of air, and rode 10 miles on pavement on a KLR 650 until it popped. Only had to ride 3 miles on a flat in the dark on a busy narrow back road with no shoulder then.
I for one will never make too much fun of people (gotta kid a little), who come up with inventive ideas, even when they don't work out. Einstein used to send off his brainstorms to the best minds in the world to either prove or disprove before publicly publishing them. Over 50% of his ideas either couldn't be proven or were disproven. He just kept trying and innovating and became known as the greatest scientific theorist to date.
I'm so dumb I had to look up how to spell "theorist". And "Einstein". And "brainstorm". And "Dumb".
HEY, I'M YELLING CAUSE I JUST HAD A BRAINSTORM! i WONDER IF YOU USED SHOE GOO INSTEAD OF SILICONE? OR A MIXTURE OF THE TWO? SHOE GOO IS STRONG YET FLEXIBLE, BONDS WELL, I USE IT FOR LOTS OF STUFF! I bet it wouldn't peel.
Nah,. Maybe? Nah. But what if...
To respond to something about the bedliner stuff: It don't last forever. Lasts a long time, but it is suceptable to heating and cooling cycles which bike rims get alot of. Truck beds do also, but truck beds will also peel the lining after a few yrs, and a bike tire is constantly abrading at the rim, as is the bead lock. The spoke nipple ends are also constantly twisting and moving slightly. Anything you put in there will wear away in time, I think. Why not try and do it yourself? Just carry a spare tube and flat repair kit like always to be safe in case the lining wears wears away and you get a flat. All you would have to do is punch a hole where the tube nipple goes through the rim, through the bedliner at the original hole in the rim.
Someone asked why the industry doesn't use a self sealing system? They want you to buy more tubes! And come to them to get a flat fixed. And it increases the cost of the bike initially.
Also, the industry does have the Bib Mousse and Tubliss systems, but both are very expensive. The race industry doesn't generally use tubes, at least not the off road teams. Don't know about MX?
Someone asked what's wrong with tubes? If I take a weekend, spend at least 125.00, usually 2-250, to go to a Harescramble, Enduro, or Dual Sport event, (Entry fee, gas, food, bike fuel and expenses, misc.), I don't want the hassle or wasted time fixing a flat. Even an Adventure ride from my backdoor, I don't want to have to fix a flat I wanna ride. I can swap a tube in under 20 minutes if I try but that ain't the point. That's 20 min missed riding. 20 min my buddies had to wait. possibly 20 min lost in an Enduro. Possibly a failure to climb a hill. Possibly a cut ruined tire. Tubeless is a great idea to me, but it just costs too much currently. I hope someone figures out how to make it work homeade and cheap. I hope it's me. If so, I'll let ya'll know, or I'll patent it and market it here first.
Has anyone tried the foam rings that go inside the tire instead of a tube?
Do you mean the mousse?
Tire Mousse: for dualsporting?
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740763 <-- linky
When I first heard of the DIY tubless kits for motorcycle I immediately wandered why I had not seen any "homegorwon" solutions posted up. People have been converting mountain bike tires to tubeless for years (though admittedly there are some differences). BUT, I'll mention some of my observations:
1. To do it, you would not need to silicone the spoke holes. Mountain bike "kits" use a rubber rim strip with a valve stem. The first thing you do is tape the rim (packing tape works well for this). Then, the rim strip is stretched over the rim. I suspect on a motorcycle, you could easily make a rim strip by cutting a tube for a slightly smaller rim.You basically want to make a strip that is as wide as the inside of the rim.
2. Sealant- there are countless concoctions for sealants, but the primary ingrediant for most is liquid latex. Alot of people mix in various other things, and often use a small amount of etheline glycol (antifreeze) to keep it from hardening too much. Just a guess, but I suspect you would need about 4 cups of sealant per tire. You need enough to coat the area where the bead meets the rim, and to "slosh around" so that any new punctures can be filled.
3. Tire Selection- I have run non tubeless mountain bike tires with DIY tubeless concersions for years, and I have learned through some very, very painful experience that all tires are not created equally. The latex sealant will degrade the carcass of some tires, and the sidewalls on some tires are just not up to the task. I don't think this would be an issue with a motorcycle tire because of the increased thickness, but having a tire blow off a rim after a big drop on a downhill bike is a bad, bad thing. It would be worse on a motorcycle.
4. Seating the bead- on a bike, I often use a CO2 ot "pop" the tire on the bead. Once it there, you quickly begin spinning the tire and waving it around so that the sealnet is dispered. You will see it seeping out/ bubbling around the edges as it seals. A motorcycle bead is much stiffer, but it could still be "popped" out with a compressor. The air pressure would hold the bead against the rim, and the sealant would still seal it. It almsot glues the bead to the rim.
All that being said, I just don't know how much I would trust it. I got hurt pretty bad in Sedona when my front tire blew off after a big drop. I would actually be much more apt to give it a shot on a street bike than a dirt bike. My experience has been that is hard impacts- especially side impacts- are the most likely to unseat the bead.
so backdrifter, how do you look back on the silicone & duct tape after 8 years?
i've heard stories of guys taking their tires off to find balls of duct tape all wadded up bouncing around inside.. I hear that you can avoid this if you lock down the tape ends by the valve stem
did you ever hit a center punch style rock or pothole on that bike?
Thats an interesting old thread. I'm baffled that riders are accepting tubed tires on new, expensive, motorcycles. Tubeless spoked wheels have been with us since the 1980s. I find it laughable that BMW specs all their bikes with ABS in the name of safety, but specs tubed tires on their less expensive models.
It amused me to read the old posts by riders who assumed that a leaking tire would surely result in death or dismemberment.
LOL!...interesting bit of history. Backdrifter's original method here is similar to what mountainbikes did many years ago. I did it to my mountainbike, and it worked OK until better kits and methods came along. On a motorcycle, however, the forces on the bead/rim interface are way more powerful. Over three years ago I installed the Nuetech Tubliss setup in my dirt bike and haven't looked back at tubes and such. The bead clamping integrity of that system is what really makes it work, as you can play with air pressures and such. The system comes with a rim lock very similar to what we already use with tubed systems, so you don't a full blown tire and bead separation. My bike is plated, so I even spend time on pavement with this setup. Can you imagine what will happen with a sudden loss of air on backdrifter's setup on a tire and rim that are not tubeless designed...and without a rimlock?:eek1
Outex from Japan (silicone and then this tape should hold forever)
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Can you imagine what will happen with a sudden loss of air on backdrifter's setup on a tire and rim that are not tubeless designed...and without a rimlock?
The same thing as if it had a tube installed with no rim-lock, and no safety bead lock like many bikes.
Possibly the air would escape faster with a tube installed and lead to a loose tire and death even faster than with the tubeless setup. Would not air escape thru the spoke holes, as well as the puncture?
Yeah, that's a stretch, but still plausible.
Now for a public service announcement.
If your rims have a safety bead like this you can safely run tubeless tires with no tubes and no rimlock.
Original thread here if anybody's interested.
Have you ever got a flat on a tubed streetbike wheel and yanked the wheel off on the side of the road,broken the bead,changed out the tube on a 110 degree day with no shade to be found? On a 500+ lb bike wobbling around on a centerstand trying to get the wheel back on?
If it has a centerstand that is. Ive done it once,I dont own streetbikes with tubed wheels anymore,not now not ever,
Most streetriders dont carry tubes/tire irons/air pump/rubber gloves or the knowledge of how to change a tire,they just assume it wont happen to them. Or they will call home.
A plug can usually be in place in minutes if you know what your doing,thats why people want tubeless tires. As an aside a friend did the silicone rim seal thing on his Triumph Tiger years ago and it still works fine,never leaked.
Streetbikes havent had rimlocks for many years.
I got a flat on a chrome rimmed 2007 Triumph Scrambler with tubed rim,the tire fell off the rim before I could even stop,if I had been going fast it would have been spectacular no doubt.
Then it turned out the swingarm needed to be spread a ways to get the wheel back on while holding the two wheel spacers in place with both hands while trying to shoehorn the wheel back in...........
Guys should maybe consider this when riding bikes,could they fix it if there was no way to get help? No cell phone coverage,middle of BFE.
What would you do?
After reading several articles on DIY tubeless conversions, I decided to give it a go. The bike is DRZ400sm. The rims are lipped on the bead(And it is damn near impossible to break the bead even with bead breaker), they have 10,000 miles on them and are still perfectly true. The tires are tubeless(Conti Force SM front and Pirelli Diablo Rosso II rear)
I used the Seal-All/ Goop method that can be found in Orange Crush.
First I cleaned the rims. Then I used a 3M stripper at each nipple(which barely touched the anodizing), then roughed around each nipple with emery cloth, sprayed it down with carb cleaner, washed that off with alcohol and then dryed with compressed air. I also filed back the weld in the bead area.
I used a syringe to fill each nipple with Seal-All, run it around the edge, then cover everything with a layer, making sure there were no bubbles. After twenty four hours, I covered this with a nice layer of Goop, twelve hours later I added a second layer of Goop. I tried to peel off some Goop that was dribbled between the nipples. That stuff is really on there.
The next day(today) I mounted the tires and submerged to check for leaks. No leaks at the nipples but the front was leaking a very small amount around the bead and quite a bit where the rim is welded together(also at the bead). I pulled the tire, and went back to work on the weld(Thought I had it smooth enough, guess not) I also found a tire shop that carried Safety Seal. I ran a light application around the rim before inflating the tire, no leaks. On the rear, I did not try it without the safety seal, because as I mentioned, breaking the bead is pretty hard.
Rear wheel weight dropped one pound nine ounces, have not checked the front change yet.
With just the Seal-All applied
While there is always a chance of failure, I have read plenty of long term success stories, and I am confident that the application was well done. At the least I don't see it going down any faster than the flat I had last year(Tire stayed on)
Even if they don't fail, I put on new front pads, so they could always fall out. :)
Got to ride today. Allowing for the profile of the new rear tire, there is quite a difference in handling. It is quicker, almost twitchy until I got used to it. A SMIDSY waggle really shows the improvement from reducing unsprung weight. I will probably bump up the damping a click or two, esp. rebound.
And, the weight decrease in front was one pound four ounces.
Glad to see this thread here. I want to use the 3M 4412N tape on my DR650 and just wondering if anyone has done this? As the center section not too wide I was planning on using the 1" wide tape but concerned that there may not be enough space between the indentation for the spoke and shoulder (?) of the center of the rim. I Hope that makes sense. Anyways I may be the first and I'll post up how it goes. With all the technology advances why do we still have tube type rims???
From reading the PDF it looks like it would work. You would want to put silicone in the nipple hole and around the nipple to smooth the transition and not give a depression for air pressure to deform the tape in to. Looks like they also have an adhesion promoter for metal, 111 was the number.
I have found another method to seal the spokes. http://cyb.smugmug.com/gallery/7250813_ZxQA5#!i=465979444&k=cW2xa
There are also some who use the seal-all and tape that seems like the way to go with the narrow rim. Just ordered some new tires and will let you know how it works out.