USA energy self sufficient by 2030

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Steve G., Nov 12, 2012.

  1. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    For those out there who are hoping, demanding, or should I say expecting all the government programs we are used to, better get ready for some seriously bad news.
    http://business.financialpost.com/2012/11/12/u-s-to-overtake-saudi-as-top-oil-producer-by-2017-iea/
    Pensions, health care, government services. It either comes from borrowed money, or from services/products/commodities. In Canada, ours is oil & gas. Mainly sold to the USA. The great socialist hero rock star Obama has confirmed the Democratic's mission that the USA WILL not have to be oil/gas importers by 2030. For Canadians, this is the worst news ever. Here we are arguing about whether we should extract/sell the stuff at all. Never mind thinking about selling to someone other than the USA. You anti-pipeline folks out there better take a serious reality check here, your actions, your stance, your idealology WILL negatively effect your retirement years. 2017 is not very far away, 2030 will roll around quickly as well. I'm older than most of you, my pension will be in full swing way before we have to turn our oil tap off. You younger set, you're fucked. Your kids are totally fucked.
    Think about it.
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  2. 250senuf

    250senuf Long timer

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    I didn't read the linked arcticle but doesn't the USA consider our oil/gas as a domestic supply?
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  3. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    Very good question. Don't know that.
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  4. toddiscdn

    toddiscdn Take off, EH!

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    Im not sure exactly how they put it, but they do not consider it "foreign oil"
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  5. Forseti

    Forseti Long timer

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    Turning the tap off as you put it does have advantages as well. The doom and gloom is over stated i think.

    Canada has bigger problems than the potential loss of fuel revenue.

    Besides i seriously doubt there is any way the USA could become self sufficient for energy even if it includes Canadian energy.The cost is prohibitive both financially for consumers and corporate entities as well as the political fallout from loss of cheap (relatively) energy.
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  6. High Country Herb

    High Country Herb Adventure Connoiseur

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    USA chiming in here: All the talk in the latest election was about "North American energy independence", so the plan is to rely heavily on Canada and Mexico for oil, and US for natural gas.

    The long term push is to eliminate the use of fossil fuels all together. While that sounds great, I don't know how realistic it is. The problem for you guys (as oil exporters) is that our current president is against the pipeline. I don't think he is against Canadian oil, but sees the pipeline as something that will delay the development of alternative energy sources.

    It sounds like there may be ways to pipe the oil into North Dakota on private land, and process it into fuel there for delivery to the end users. If not, don't worry; we'll all be f****d together...
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  7. Spaggy

    Spaggy Long timer

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    Let's get serious, Governments do things in 4 year chunks. Nobody knows what the next admin will do or undo. I work in the Alberta oilpatch and have since 1982. If every "doom & gloom, now we're fucked" forecast came true, we'd have long since bled out from being poked by so many dicks.
    I bet our great grandparents thought they were fucked too.
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  8. blackfly911

    blackfly911 Meat Popsicle

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    Sweet Jebuz! You're kidding ..... right?

    Rockmuncher and High Country Herb have the right idea, a bit of research and a dash or reality before posting Henny Penny comments really prevent one from looking like one was educated by the National Enquirer.

    No need to worry Steve G, we'll all be gone long before 2030, hell before you're drawing your pension for that matter, the world is ending in December... oh wait, you didn't know?

    Trololo xD




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  9. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    Forgot about that Aztec calendar thing. Well, I'm flying to Hawaii before that date using Alberta sourced jet fuel.
    Seriously, the main reason I bring this up is tax revenue, revenue other than income taxes, which will NOT cover the social programs we expect from government. We see the results of inadequete tax revenue and resulting vastly reduced social programs and pervieved "entitlements" at this moment live in the streets in Greece, Spain, and Portugal. This current situation is simply the canary in the coal mine for us, yet we ignore this, sticking instead to our specific idealologies which in many cases are specifically pushing for the elimination of the revenue needed to keep these services alive.
    It's all about basic arithmetic here.
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  10. RED CAT

    RED CAT Bumpy Backroader

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    No need to worry about Canada's Oil Exports. That Pipeline to Kitimat will shortly be pushed through for the huge Asian market just begging for our Oil and Gas. Dizzy dumb Christy Clark is about to get a reality check! The Feds will put her in her place when the time comes.
    #10
  11. gunnerbuck

    gunnerbuck Island Hopper

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    Say aren't you one of the guys that always promotes cross border shopping for cheaper products and to save on paying taxes and duties... You probably also go south of the border to buy your fuel and save big not having to pay Canadian fuel taxes on it... I can't blame you as I hate paying taxes as well... So why not rape the younger generations future to keep the dream alive? Leave nothing in the ground for them...

    The way I see it is even now with unprecedented exploitation and exporting of Canadian resources the governments books continue to go further and further into the red... Something is very wrong with the way all this revenue is being managed and part problem is all the hands sticking out along the way with the sense of entitlement ... This whole system with the way it is run now is eventually going to crash whether they build the pipeline or not... Shipping the oil away to China in larger and larger quantities may buy a little more time but it wont change things...
    Governments are already broke and speeding up resource extraction is a band aid solution... Why not sell the coalfields and oilfields to foreigners? Go one up and why not let them bring in their own workers to speed up production? More production means more revenue right? Why not knock down the 60 year old forests and send half to China and burn the other half? Why not go through the mainland inlets one by one and dam up the rivulets to export the power, more revenue right? Why not have DFO put more time and effort into improving salmon farming instead of preserving the wild stocks, after all for some projects wild salmon are just a thorn in the side...

    It is very likely that the bulk of the oil has already been sold to China with the promised pipeline as part of the deal... It will for sure be interesting to see how it plays out...
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  12. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    Ok, now that you've shot the messenger, and decided against the use of this country's biggest source of revenue for the last 25 yrs, ,,,, what's your solution to the shrinking revenue situation? I for one wouldn't mind government programs alive and well, but am thinking about how they will be paid for.
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  13. gunnerbuck

    gunnerbuck Island Hopper

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    I'm not against using the resources but rather the increasing speed and the wasteful practices that are taking place... The faster they pull this stuff out of the ground the shorter the lifespan of the particular resource.. If the coffers are already going backwards with this huge revenue stream, whats going to happen shortly after the peak is reached? Why not ship the oil to local refineries, maybe pipe it east to Ontario? Same with the logs, cut them up here... Canada for years has been exporting a lot of secondary industry jobs out of the country and now the practice of importing large groups of foreign workers to fill the primary jobs has begun.. Is there something wrong here?

    Whether we like it or not sooner or later there will have to be some cuts... But it is time for something totally different, they need to start at the top and work down.. Namely those politicians, senators and queen reps and the money it is costing to have them... 8 years service gets you a pension rate that dwarfs a regular worker who puts in a lifetime... Huge severance packages if they get fired, it's like your rewarded for doing lousy work or being corrupt...

    The billing rates for studies, consulting and so on needs to be reigned in as a lot of revenue goes out for very little actual work being performed... The same goes for top level exec positions for public owned corps... Look at BC ferries, the big salaries paid to the top dogs for the great work they did to fix an ailing system was money well spent?

    You start going through it all and the yearly costs are staggering... Are things going to change, probably not... If you were allowed to vote on your own wage rate and entitlements would you vote down all the extras?

    The way our system is set up is the trimming always takes place at the lower and middle class and rarely goes beyond that... If you work down from the top by the time you reach the middle maybe no further cutting will be required...
    #13
  14. vanveen

    vanveen Been here awhile

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    Not to worry, they figure that Fracking is whats going to pull them into being energy independant, but it doesn't work, they are going full steam now and not producing enough, on top of that its not like conventional oil drilling where you are pulling oil out of huge pools underground, for every drill they send down only a small return of oil is returned so its horribly expensive, they can slow the damage down a little but the end is in sight, time to buy a 250 and watch the revs:freaky
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  15. MCP

    MCP Been here awhile

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    U.S will be self sufficient in oil.

    Just isn't going to happen, and even if it did, the Chinese demand for oil is going through the roof, and they will buy everything we have to sell no matter the cost. Oil = GDP, you have no oil you have no growth.

    Look at vehicle sales, in 2011 - N/A sold 14.2 million and China sold 17.5 million.

    USA has 812 cars per 1000 people vs China 174 cars per 1000. Thats a lot of catch up, and every new car puts new demands on the current production of oil.

    Peak Oil - if you don't believe in it, ask yourself why oil is at record $ levels when the worlds economy is in the tank. There is lots of oil, just no more cheap oil.



    I'd be more worried about all the waste in Ottawa and every govt, libs or conservatives position at election time "offer more goodies for votes" instead of cutting back and facing the realities of life; you can't keep spending what you don't have. Well you can till you can't. Just wait till the bond vigilantes surface in the USA, then it hits the fan.

    Canada is lucky, we have natural resources. If we didn't have that we would be fucked.
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  16. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    I'll agree with you, especially your last paragraph. No current govt. 'options' available federally and provincially can claim any degree of financial prudence or responsibility. They are all bad. This is by far the biggest problem to Canada continuing to enjoy social programs, the utter waste from all of them. Unfortunately, this will never change,,,,as human nature dictates, we are genetically wired to look after ourselves and our own, and have less careing ability when dealing with someone elses money.
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  17. 250senuf

    250senuf Long timer

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    Canada does have natural resources but we OWN fewer and fewer of them. Owned by others and shipped out; then we buy back what they've been made into. We need to make products out of our natural resources not just sell the raw materials.

    China mines rare earth elements. Export not allowed, but "what would you like us to make with them?".

    So we might still be f'd.
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  18. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    Wrong. We do own them, and we get a 'royalty' from every 'unit' of resource that is 'captured'. After the company [Canadian, American, Chinese, French, Spanish, etc] pays the government the royalty, they are free to do with it what they want. Would you force these companies to make wood products in Canada using $25+/hr labour rather than $1/hr somewhere else??? If that would be the case, take a quick thought as to how many companies would bother coming here,,,,,,,,,,,NONE!!! And how many royalties would the Cdn govt. collect on our resourses,,,,,,,,NONE!

    I understand your frustrations, and wish it were not so. But the fact is, our standard of living comes with certain certainties, one of those being collectively higher wages for good union jobs. We've priced ourselves out of the manufacturing market.
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  19. hewhohesit8s

    hewhohesit8s Been here awhile

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    First, any country as rich in natural resources as Canada is will not be "fucked", to use your technical term, in any future where progress is driven by energy - nuclear, fossil fuel, biomass, hydroelectric, wind, even geothermal if we care to exploit it. While we can not set the price of energy, Canada's problem is deciding how much to exploit at any given price. The oil is not going anywhere, and the 'Muricans will buy as much electricity as we care to sell them. So to claim that an energy rich country is facing a bleak future is to severely misunderstand what drivers of future growth will be.

    Second, Canada has tons of other natural resources, some renewable, some not, that can be exploited far into the future. As climate changes around the world, Canada looks to become one of the main beneficiaries of that change. Canada is likely to become a haven with increased immigration in the not too distant future (30-50 years).

    Third, Canada has a productive workforce - not as productive as we could be, but not as bad as you make it out to be. That workforce is skilled and includes both manufacturing know-how and technology know-how. there is a very healthy high tech sector in Canada even as some high tech companies disappear, others spring up to take their place.

    Fourth, Canada is not a banana republic, we are governed by the rule of law. Business will always want to do business here. It would help if Canada had an energy plan and industrial policy that was subject to review and comment, but even in the current environment, the OECD ranks Canada as one of the best places to do business in the world.

    Finally, Canada is a big exporter of natural resources, not only to the south, but all over the world. If demand drops in the US, we can compete in other markets.

    So you can say the sky is falling till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it so.
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  20. MCP

    MCP Been here awhile

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    of our resources, regardless where the company's headquarted puts Canadians too work.


    #20